Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Post Reply
User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1662
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 19:20
Location: Clocktown

Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#1

Post by Gorque » 28 Jun 2019, 18:00

An op-ed article written by Ted Widmer, a distinguished lecturer at the Macaulay Honors College of the City University of New York appearing in today's NY Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/28/opin ... e=Homepage
It was hard to believe on this sunny day, but it had been precisely five years since World War I began with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo. Since then, nearly 20 million had died, and entire empires, including Franz Ferdinand’s, had vanished. But those painful memories were softened by the knowledge that nothing so terrible could ever happen again. Because June 28 was the day that a new history would begin.

Across the Atlantic, outside Paris, another huge crowd thronged the old royal seat of Versailles, where a peace treaty awaited signature. It was the culmination of months of work, led by the American president, Woodrow Wilson, who had promised to make the world safe for democracy.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#2

Post by ljadw » 28 Jun 2019, 19:22

WW was wrong of course : the world was not safe for democracy , he never will be,it was the opposite : there was less democracy in Europe in 1919 than in 1914 .Besides, piece treaties are only pieces of paper,covering the period til the next war .


yongrichards
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 23 Mar 2020, 10:12
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#3

Post by yongrichards » 23 Mar 2020, 10:20

piece treaties are only pieces of paper, covering the period till the next war
This truth is very hard to recognize. People who say education is not required today do not know the history and in my opinion well-educated people can prevent war.

customwriting

User avatar
Terry Duncan
Forum Staff
Posts: 6270
Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 23:54
Location: Kent

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#4

Post by Terry Duncan » 23 Mar 2020, 13:53

yongrichards wrote:
23 Mar 2020, 10:20
piece treaties are only pieces of paper, covering the period till the next war
This truth is very hard to recognize. People who say education is not required today do not know the history and in my opinion well-educated people can prevent war.

customwriting
A treaty is more than a piece of paper as long as there is the will to enforce it or nations are willing to abide by it. Ignoring a treaty that is deemed still in force will result in war, as it did in WWI and WWII.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#5

Post by ljadw » 23 Mar 2020, 20:42

yongrichards wrote:
23 Mar 2020, 10:20
piece treaties are only pieces of paper, covering the period till the next war
This truth is very hard to recognize. People who say education is not required today do not know the history and in my opinion well-educated people can prevent war.

customwriting
The only way to prevent war is to wage war .
If you want eternal peace, you will have eternal war .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#6

Post by ljadw » 23 Mar 2020, 22:01

Terry Duncan wrote:
23 Mar 2020, 13:53
yongrichards wrote:
23 Mar 2020, 10:20
piece treaties are only pieces of paper, covering the period till the next war
This truth is very hard to recognize. People who say education is not required today do not know the history and in my opinion well-educated people can prevent war.

customwriting
A treaty is more than a piece of paper as long as there is the will to enforce it or nations are willing to abide by it. Ignoring a treaty that is deemed still in force will result in war, as it did in WWI and WWII.
The only way to enforce a treaty, is ...to wage war .
How could US prevent NK and Iran to have nuclear weapons ? Answer : by waging war .
That was the dilemma by which the Allied governments were faced after WWI : how could they enforce the Treaty of Versailles, the Pact of Locarno, etc ? The answer was : by waging war .But the propaganda had told the electors that WWI has been fought to end all wars ,thus how could western governments start new wars ?
At Locarno ,Aristide Briand said : guerre á la guerre : war to war , which implied that the victors of WWI could not start wars to prevent the losers to undo Versailles and Locarno .
About education : Wilson was a professor from Princeton ( I know some people will argue that professors at Princeton are not well-educated,but,whatever ) : not only did Wilson not prevent the outbreak of WWI,and under his leadership US intervened in WWI, but Wilson intervened before WWI by force in the domestic affairs of several countries as Mexico, Cuba, ...
Old Bush was well-educated ( he was not teaching at Princeton ) , but he did not prevent the massacre in Rwanda and the Iraqi invasion of Kuweit .

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1662
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 19:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#7

Post by Gorque » 24 Mar 2020, 00:00

ljadw wrote:
23 Mar 2020, 22:01
The only way to enforce a treaty, is ...to wage war.
Question: Was was declared when Germany failed to fulfill reparation payments demanded by the Versailles Treaty?

Answer: No. The treaty was enforced by the occupation of the balance of the Ruhr by French and Belgian forces. Ham-handed perhaps, but not war.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1662
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 19:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#8

Post by Gorque » 24 Mar 2020, 00:03

Back to the O.P.: Considering how many of the newly freed lands saw either short lived republics before becoming dictatorships of Kingdoms, I'd say no.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#9

Post by ljadw » 24 Mar 2020, 09:33

Gorque wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 00:00
ljadw wrote:
23 Mar 2020, 22:01
The only way to enforce a treaty, is ...to wage war.
Question: Was was declared when Germany failed to fulfill reparation payments demanded by the Versailles Treaty?

Answer: No. The treaty was enforced by the occupation of the balance of the Ruhr by French and Belgian forces. Ham-handed perhaps, but not war.
Was the treaty enforced ? No : Germany continued to violate the treaty . The treaty could be enforced only if Germany was willing to execute its obligations. And as Germany was not willing to do it, the result was that the French left the Ruhr,and that there were negotiations to lower the amount of the reparations,and further negotiations ( Dawes plan, Young plan ) resulted in even less reparations,til the Germans accepted a sum they said they could pay ,and when the crisis came, the reparations stopped,but meanwhile the ''secret '' German rearmament ( which was well-known in Paris and London ) continued .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#10

Post by ljadw » 24 Mar 2020, 09:37

About the Treaty: as WWI was not fought to make the world safe for democracy ( this was only propaganda ),the Treaty also had not the aim to propagate ''democracy '' around the world .Thus it could not be a Victory for Democracy .

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1662
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 19:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#11

Post by Gorque » 24 Mar 2020, 20:19

ljadw wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 09:33
Gorque wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 00:00
ljadw wrote:
23 Mar 2020, 22:01
The only way to enforce a treaty, is ...to wage war.
Question: Was was declared when Germany failed to fulfill reparation payments demanded by the Versailles Treaty?

Answer: No. The treaty was enforced by the occupation of the balance of the Ruhr by French and Belgian forces. Ham-handed perhaps, but not war.
Was the treaty enforced ? No : Germany continued to violate the treaty . The treaty could be enforced only if Germany was willing to execute its obligations. And as Germany was not willing to do it, the result was that the French left the Ruhr,and that there were negotiations to lower the amount of the reparations,and further negotiations ( Dawes plan, Young plan ) resulted in even less reparations,til the Germans accepted a sum they said they could pay ,and when the crisis came, the reparations stopped,but meanwhile the ''secret '' German rearmament ( which was well-known in Paris and London ) continued .
Ludo:

You made a statement using the absolute term, "only," and I found an exception the negates your argument. Next time don't use an absolute term without being 100% sure that there aren't any exceptions that would negate your argument.

Moving on....

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Was the Treaty of Versailles a Victory for Democracy?

#12

Post by ljadw » 24 Mar 2020, 20:35

The Franco-Belgian occupation of the Ruhr was an act of war ,which failed . The Germans reacted by general strike and civil disobedience and acts of resistance, which were considered by the French as terrorism.The French shot (=killed ) 130 Germans, among whom Schlageter .

Post Reply

Return to “First World War”