The end of the SMS Lutzöw (battle of Jutland)

[Tanzania]

Dear David,

Thank you of course for taking up the topic again, as it interests me a lot. I will definitely
stay on the ball, even if I have not yet been able to determine the source to which I am referring.

But you will surely agree with me that it is only logical that this statement has to come from
a original German source. (Or the British had a spy on board, but he didn't sink with the ship.)

Despite the forensic investigation possibilities that are very advanced today, after more than
100 years, based on human remains, it will not be possible to determine whether someone
died during the battle on May 31, 1916, or whether someone drowned the next morning .

Cheers Holger

[jluetjen]

I did some searching and at least in the US this episode is available on Amazon Prime Videos, although you have to pay a nominal amount for it. I just haven't had a chance to sit down and watch it. It's also available through the National Geographic Channel web page if you are a member.

[jluetjen]

Looking at the well Researched "Kaiser's Battlefleet" by Aidan Dodson... (Starting at page 120)

Meanwhile, Lutzow's flooding at been steadily worsening, exacerbated by the failure of some of her pumps owing to the bending of their driveshafts by battle damage and the failure of the overall drainage system. Soon progress forward became impossible, and an attempt to go astern failed, since the forecastle was now partly submerged, with the propellers beginning to break the surface. All compartments below the armour deck forward of the conning tower had now flooded and by midnight all lighting in this part of the ship had failed.
Above the armour deck, water was entered via the various shell-holes in the forecastle, spreading further through ventilation shafts, in spite of three attempts to fit patches to the holes. These were frustrated by the waves breaking over the forecastle as it settled deeper and deeper. Water also began to enter through the foremost 15 cm casemates, pumps in the control room and forward boiler room being overwhelmed, meaning that these compartments also had to be abandoned. Up to that point, some 8300t of water had entered the ship, causing her to settle by 8.5 m forward and rise by 4.5 m aft. Things deteriorated still further, and from 00:55 Lutzow's crew were taken off by torpedo boats, with the draught forward now measuring 17m. By 01:45, water had reached the edge of "B" barbette and the order was given for G38 to sink her by torpedo. The first torpedo went under - as a result of her angle by the bow -- but the second hit amidships, Lutzow capsizing to starboard and sinking within two minutes, a testament to her dire condition at the point of scuttling. The ship sank in about 45 meters of water, coming to rest at an angle of about ~160 degrees to port, prevented from turning over by the conning tower and turrents. The forepart broke away and came to rest upside down a short distance away.
When sunk, Lutzow had been hit by approximately 24 (conceivably up to thirty) heavy and medium shells.
Her wreck now lies upside down in around 48 miters of water, and was the subject of salvage operations in 1960.
A multibeam survey in 2015 revealed several large holes in the hull, dives revealing at least one shell room with the rounds and cartridges still in situ.(2)

(2) Footnote: Information courtesy Innes McCartney.

[jluetjen]

I just sat through the episode. I have to admit that this episode is an excellent example of why I've grown frustrated with a lot of historical documentaries, and many books too. Some observations:

1) The intro the show suggests that the battle of Jutland is a decisive factor in deciding the outcome of the war. Really? More than the U-Boot war against Great Britain, more than the sinking of the Lousitania that leads to the US's entry into the war? I'll grant them a little hyperbole for the sake of drama, but that isn't really accurate..

2) With much drama they discuss the destruction of the British Battle Cruisers as a "mystery", which I guess suggests that they haven't read the volumes of reports, investigations and inquiries by the British Admiralty. This is curious since it appears that the champion of the expedition is Ned Jellicoe, the grandson of the British Admiral commanding the British fleet at the battle.

3) The section on the Lutzow starts at about 21:00 after being teased as 'The lengthes that the Germans are willing to go to avoid capture."

4) At 22:22 the Narrator reveals a "surprise" -- "The Lutzow's hull is not blown into separate pieces" (as opposed to the Invinceable). I guess nobody bothered to read the German eye witness accounts of the sinking. But moving on...

5) There is a discussion of the German charge handling system compared to that used on the British Battle Cruisers.

6) then at 23:15 they rather pedantically conclude from the Lutzow's location that it is not sink by the Royal Navy. Once again a lot of false drama that ignores a lot of easily available information. Finally at 23:41 we get into it.

(Dr. Delgado) Lutzow gets away from the British and limping home, the crew realizes that the ship's not going to make it. Rather than to leave it afloat for the British to capture and make a trophy of, they decide to sink it.
(Narrator) Packed with advanced military technology, it's vital Lutzow doesn't fall into enemy hands. But that's not all...
(Dr. Delgado) There is honor at stake here and so the scuttle it and see nothing wrong with that, in fact it's the type of action that will get you a medal.
(Narrator):But the pride that drives the Germans to sink one of their best ships, comes at a terrible price...
(Nick Jellicoe) There are men trapped in the dynamo room. They had stayed on board to keep the lights running so that their comrades could get off. They were the ones told they're not going to get off, the ship is going to be torpedoed by their own torpedo boats. They knew they were going to die.

WHAT?!!!?

There were about 115 casualties reported out of a crew of about 1100.

Andy South at the www.navygeneralboard.com site reports the following;

Hit twenty-one was at 20:15 and was a 13.5-inch shell from either the dreadnoughts Orion or Monarch. It landed on the right barrel of ‘A’ turret and detonated just outside the gun-port. Splinters showered into the turret, the aft hoop was torn off the barrel of the right 30.5cm gun, which was now jammed. The left gun was protected by the splinter shield inside the turret and remained serviceable. Shell number twenty-two was of the same salvo and penetrated the deck between ‘C’ and ‘D’ turrets. The aft dressing station was destroyed and heavy casualties were inflicted on the already wounded and the medical personnel attending them. Of the three doctors, fifteen attendants and 160 to 180 wounded only four personnel remained alive. These four men were hurled by the force of the explosion into the next compartment, where they lay unconscious. The electrical cable to ‘D’ turret, which ran above the armoured deck in this position was also severed, leaving the turret only trainable by hand. But before Lützow was scuttled the electrical personnel had managed to restore the cable connection. Stabswachtmeister Behrens wrote:

“Then a report arrived that a heavy hit had penetrated the aft dressing station from above and exploded there. Obermaat Meyer, wounded, brought this report forward to me. His wound did not appear too bad, and briefly after his report he sat down and began to smoke. In reality he was badly wounded by a splinter and succumbed to this wound 14 days later.
Now it was frighteningly clear to me that all the doctors and specially trained medical personnel were dead or injured. The vision earlier seen: the commander of the ship, surrounded by the four doctors, came before my eyes, and now the present situation; both dressing stations knocked out or destroyed by heavy artillery hits and connected with that the injuries to doctors and specialist medical personnel, and destruction of the greater part of the medicines and medical equipment.

Because there was no alternative the badly wounded were simply taken to a Zwischendeck (steerage) compartment and laid out”.
...
The last shell, number Twenty-five, was sometime between 20:15 and 20:30. A heavy caliber shell struck the upper main mast above the observation position. The personnel inside the aft conning tower, which was directly beside the tower, heard a deafening impact as the upper mast toppled over.
At 19:50 Kommodore Andreas Michelsen, aboard the cruiser Rostock had ordered the torpedo boats G40, G38, G37 and V45 from ‘I Half-Flotilla’ to assist the heavily mauled Lützow. In addition the G39 came alongside and took on board both Hipper and his staff, transferring him to the Moltke where he could regain control of his squadron. As Hipper departed his stricken flagship, the V45 and G37 began laying a smoke screen between the wounded Lützow and the British line, but before it could be completed, Lützow was struck at 20:15 by shell number, 21, 22, 23 and 24. Lützow herself was to fire her final shell half an hour later at 20:45, from which moment her battle was no longer with the Royal Navy, but for her very continued survival. With that last shell fired, the smoke screen had finally succeeded in hiding her from the British guns. The ship was by this stage heavily ablaze, holed, flooded, and large areas of the interior were filled with the poisonous fumes of the shells, forcing crew members resort to wearing gas masks.

As Scheer attempted to seek the sanctuary of the Jade for the Kaiser fleet, the lone Lützow’s speed had dropped from the 26 knots she had made earlier in the day to 15 knots. By 20:50 the Lützow attempted to pass behind the German line, out of reach of the British guns and using the High Seas fleet as a shield. With her four loyal TB escort standing by her she tried to gain the safety of the disengaged side. As she crawled through the seas, the water continued to enter through her mauled hull and by 21:30, the sea began to wash onto the deck and pour though the shell holes on her forecastle, where they flooded the compartments above the main armored deck, which would quickly bring significant stability problems. At 21:35, with over 1038 tons of sea water on board, an attempt was made to increase her speed, but the water pressure against bulkhead XII and XIII was unrelenting and the attempt was abandoned.

By 22:13 the Lützow and her escort were alone with the last German ship in the line, the Konig, having lost sight of her as she was no longer unable to keep up with the fleet. Scheer’s hope was that in the foggy darkness, Lützow could somehow evade the British and manage to successfully return to a German port. Being unable to keep her place within the Fleet she turned south on her own, and headed for the Jade. By 22:15 she had shipped 2395 tonnes of the North Sea water, but an hour late they had pushed her to 13 knots on a SSW course. But the sea water was unrelenting in its flooding and by midnight it was lapping around the barrels of ‘A’ turret and her draft was increased from her 9.2 meters to 15 meters. This raised questions of, should she even reach Wilhelmshaven, as to how she would slip over the Jade’s sand bars. But one problem at a time….

On deck the bodies of her dead and wounded crew lay amongst the spent shell cases. From the masts fluttered her torn ensigns, twisted signal lines, and pieces of wire from the ruined wireless installation. If it wasn’t for the lookout and the three officers on the commander’s bridge, she would have resembled a ship of the dead. Below on the battery deck, there lay innumerable wounded, but there was no longer any doctor to attend to them or ease their suffering. Screams and cries came from their mouths but no one could help them now.

The 31st turned into the 1st June and she was making seven knots, with a crew still optimistic of reaching port. But as time passed the water pressure on internal bulkheads forced another decrease in the speed to a crawling 3 knots (3.5 mph or 5.6 kph) and her critical forward pumps control rods failed. The ingress of water in the bow only increased faster from this point,(00.50) and this growing body of water added stress to the already struggling bulkheads.

Around 01.00 the flood waters were finally too much for the pumps and the port diesel dynamo could not be kept drained, knocking out her generators, leaving her crew to having to resort to working in candle light in their efforts to save their ship. The twenty-seven men within the dynamo compartment had survived the days horrors, but the chamber was inaccessible due to the flooded adjoining areas. It was to be three-quarters of an hour before they could restore the lighting and only then did the extent of the damage inflicted on their ship became visible.

By now boiler room VI was beginning to flood and although the engines were producing sufficient revolution’s for 7 knots, the sheer weight of the water onboard, and increased draught, resulted in a 5 knot forward progress.

The water had by now flooded into almost every accessible area forward including the forward boiler room, the forward barbette and was in addition lapping up to the conning towers base. Three times members of the crew tried to seal the shell holes that were letting the waters flood in and three times the sinking bow brought waves of water over the repair crew, forcing them back. To try to slow the flooding two attempts were made to sail the ship in reverse but with the bow down 17 meters the screws and rudders were becoming free of the water. An effort by one of her escorts to take her under tow was also to fail in towing the 35,092 (26,741+ 8351) tonnes of warship and water.

At 02:00 an officers conference was called, and the gathered officers were advised the ship now had over 8351 tonnes of sea water inside her, 4209 beneath the armoured deck and 4142 over it. Her four escorts had a total displacement of 4204 tons, which equates to the four of them being stacked onto the Lützow, and then four more added! The forecastle was by this stage 2 meters under water and the large oil boiler room had been abandoned to save the men. The first officer was of the opinion that the ship would finally succumb and sink at 08:00. Her survival was now no longer possible and it was decided to remove the crew onto the escorting torpedo boats. The captain ordered “fires out and abandon ship”, and the wounded were carried by their shipmates to the stern. Then “All hands muster in division order abaft.” was ordered. The survivors made their way quickly and on mass from the lower deck, each one bent on saving his life. It was impossible in the time left to bring up all the wounded, as they were scattered throughout the wreck. Only eighteen men had the good fortune to be carried up, but all the rest who could not walk or crawl had to be left behind.

Six stokers remained trapped within the diesel Dynamo room, where they had lingered to maintain electrical power. They reported through the speaking tubes that the water was slowly rising, but they were trapped as if in a diving bell, compartments all around them flooded. The men trapped within the room had heard the order to abandon ship through the speaking tube. For some it was the final straw in their sanity and they screamed through the tube for help. Two of their number had to be tied up so wild had become their actions and sanity. But in end with no help or rescue possible now, some of those doomed men continued to carry on their work in order to provide the ship with light. They were to go down with their ship. How long their ‘diving bell’ of air lasted we don’t know and can never know. Did they die quickly or did they succumb slowly to the change in pressure as the ship sank to the sea bed? Or did they wait on the sea bed, air remaining to them, but just waiting on the angel of death to release them. A Leutnant zur See wrote:
“I had to think of the six poor stokers that were still alive when the ship sank. They sat in the forward diesel-dynamo switch room, just like a diving bell, and could not get out. They had called me once, as I had a connection with them, and reported that the water was slowly rising in their room. It was held by pumps at a certain height. They maintained their courage and optimism until the last. They were still trapped”.

A report of two British cruisers and five destroyers approaching circulated amongst the living and just at that critical time the fore and middle bulkheads finally gave way. G40, G38, G37 and V45 were ordered, three at a time, to the starboard side as the crew were rescued. The surviving crew members had gathered on the quarter deck and after three cheers for Kaiser and ship they abandoned her, the wounded being removed first. Kapitän Zur See Harder was the last man off. Kapitänleutnant Jung wrote:
“The survivors assembled on the quarterdeck. Above them fluttered the battle flag, shot to pieces by the enemy shells. Where there was no longer any Offiziere, the senior Unteroffizier took command. Still it was a black night. Only in the east the hesitating dawn appeared, heralding the new day. The address of the commander was short and concise. He concluded with the request that we be proud of SMS Lützow and her crew today for their selfless and extraordinary service for the Fatherland. Then three cheers were called for the ship and Kaiser”.

Korvettenkapitän Paschen wrote:
“The disembarking of the crew was exemplary; first all wounded, then quietly, all the remaining. When we cast off as the last boat, I could see in the first of the morning gloom the ship as follows: turret A under water, B an island. The bridge stood in water to the upper deck. The stern was approximately 2m higher than usual”.


G38’s first torpedo was to pass underneath the stern with the decreased draft in the bow raising it up, but her second torpedo struck amidships. As the torpedo struck seven members of the crew were seen running like madmen round the rear deck. Over fatigued, they had it seemed dropped off to sleep and been awakened by the torpedo detonation.

The ship rolled to starboard and capsized at 02:47 and sank, after just 73 days of full commission, in just 2 minutes just as the first rays of the new days sun appeared on the horizon. During her battle, Lützow had fired an estimated 380 of her 720 30.5cm shells and 400 of her 1920 shells for her 15cm secondary guns, as well as two torpedoes. But more importantly she had suffered 115 men killed and another 50 wounded from her crew of 44 officers and 1,068 men.

So there you have it. 6 stokers were trapped by circumstances in the dynamo room. I think it stretches the historicity of the story to suggest that the Germans scuttled the ship for reasons of pride, or ordered the crew to stay at stations while the ship was scuttled. There were valid military reasons for scuttling the Lutzow to ensure that it wasn't captured by the British, even in the unlikely event that it managed to stay afloat. The crew had done everything possible to save the ship. The stokers in the dynamo room had chosen to "linger' in order to keep the lights on. To me this is the sort of action that might justify a posthumous medal in many navies. But ultimately they were tragically trapped there, and there was no way to get them out. Their death was not due to German pride or some maniacal suicide command, but due to personal sacrifice. Letting the ship flounder for another hour or two would not have changed the outcome -- the stokers were lost. With the rising water in the compartment (remember, the speaking tubes were venting), it's not clear if they were even still alive when the torpedos hit.

Curiously, the show does have a German Naval Historian on the cast (Prof. Michael Epkenhans), but rather than have him tell the story of the Lutzow, they only bring him on for the epilogue of the episode.

So I'll give the documentary a 5/10 for ginning up some extra drama where none was needed.

[jluetjen]

For what I think is an excellent analysis of the Battle of Jutland, I recommend the YouTube videos done by Drachenifel. Here are also the links to part 2 and part 3.

I think he does an excellent job reporting the thoughts and actions of the participants (and the historical drama of the actual battle) as opposed to manufacturing drama to satisfy modern attention spans.

[DavidFrankenberg]

Andy South at the www.navygeneralboard.com site reports the following;

Six stokers remained trapped within the diesel Dynamo room, where they had lingered to maintain electrical power. They reported through the speaking tubes that the water was slowly rising, but they were trapped as if in a diving bell, compartments all around them flooded. The men trapped within the room had heard the order to abandon ship through the speaking tube. For some it was the final straw in their sanity and they screamed through the tube for help. Two of their number had to be tied up so wild had become their actions and sanity. But in end with no help or rescue possible now, some of those doomed men continued to carry on their work in order to provide the ship with light. They were to go down with their ship. How long their ‘diving bell’ of air lasted we don’t know and can never know. Did they die quickly or did they succumb slowly to the change in pressure as the ship sank to the sea bed? Or did they wait on the sea bed, air remaining to them, but just waiting on the angel of death to release them. A Leutnant zur See wrote:
“I had to think of the six poor stokers that were still alive when the ship sank. They sat in the forward diesel-dynamo switch room, just like a diving bell, and could not get out. They had called me once, as I had a connection with them, and reported that the water was slowly rising in their room. It was held by pumps at a certain height. They maintained their courage and optimism until the last. They were still trapped”.

So there you have it. 6 stokers were trapped by circumstances in the dynamo room. I think it stretches the historicity of the story to suggest that the Germans scuttled the ship for reasons of pride, or ordered the crew to stay at stations while the ship was scuttled. There were valid military reasons for scuttling the Lutzow to ensure that it wasn't captured by the British, even in the unlikely event that it managed to stay afloat. The crew had done everything possible to save the ship. The stokers in the dynamo room had chosen to "linger' in order to keep the lights on. To me this is the sort of action that might justify a posthumous medal in many navies. But ultimately they were tragically trapped there, and there was no way to get them out. Their death was not due to German pride or some maniacal suicide command, but due to personal sacrifice. Letting the ship flounder for another hour or two would not have changed the outcome -- the stokers were lost. With the rising water in the compartment (remember, the speaking tubes were venting), it's not clear if they were even still alive when the torpedos hit.

Thank you !

So the mechanics were locked in their room. In what extent the captain knew their situation ? He should have be aware of it as a ship captain. It is possible that, as a captain, he decided to sacrifice his mechanics in order to try to save the ship.

[jluetjen]

I think you're reading too much into it. First off, the ship was not saveable. When that became clear is when the process of removing the crew began. Maybe it's a subtlety, but there is a difference between "...being locked in..." and "...being trapped". The captain had no power to change the stokers' fate. The Lutzow was going to sink, and the stokers were going to go down with it. There was nothing the Captain could do about either outcome. But he did have a responsibility to save the rest of the crew before it was too late, and once that was done, to ensure that the ship didn't fall into enemy hands. So that is what was done.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Engine-room personnel of all industrialized navies were at higher risk for these sorts of losses. Deep in the ship, with longer egress times, coupled with the fact that egress routes could be closed off by damage or, indeed, decision, meant that the black gangs had it harder evacuating a ship.

I don't think it diminishes their heroism; I think it speaks to the captain's logic of saving as many sailors as possible to fight another day. Looking to cast aspersions or shower plaudits strikes me as ignoring brute facts.

[Tanzania]

Jluetjen
Sorry for late reply. Many thanks’ for the detailed information.

But I repeat my question again:
Does anybody know THE GERMAN source where all of today's statements and television discussions come from?

Cheers Holger

[Terry Duncan]

I have never seen claims of anyone going down on Lutzow, there was plenty of time to get everyone off the ship so leaving people behind would be far from normal. However, if people were trapped in sealed watertight compartments that could not be accessed then they may have perished in this manner, though I have never seen any claims such a thing took place on Lutzow as she had flooded relatively slowly and been out of the action for several hours before she sank, allowing plenty of time to reach such places.

That's what happened - saw it on Drain the Oceans. There was a compartment forward that was cut off by flooding with trapped crew inside.

So it would seem. Much of the forepart of the ship was flooded very fast after the two hits from Invincible (iirc Campbell suggests 3,000 tons of water entered almost instantly, but was already pretty much shattered by the damage sustained up to that point. Steering and generators were usually held in well protected comparments so it is perfectly possible for people to survive after a major flooding, and the rest of the ship had slowly taken on water for hours after that which would have made rescue harder even if it were attempted. Only being able to see the compartment on a schematic would allow for an insight into what cut the men off in the first place though it sounds as though it may have been cut off by the initial flooding and remained that way, though it is not possible to tell what attempts were made at rescue from the accounts here.

The part I find odd here though is that this generator room would need to be forward of the main foreward bulkhead in the area of the foreward torpedo flat to have been caught in the almost instant flooding caused by Invincible's hits, which seems a rather strange place for a rather vital facility to be places as it is outside the main citadel of the ship.

[Tanzania]

Hello Terry,

As far as I understand, you are convinced that this incident never happened.
The possibility that you are right, is of course very large and also obvious.

There are also technical statements from specialists in a German naval forum.
https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/i ... ic=28660.0

And a model-picture:
http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?op ... &catid=250

But regardless of whether this is true or not, the (false) statements in the British
and / or American media must be based on a German source; - or not?

Cheers Holger

[jluetjen]

But I repeat my question again:
Does anybody know THE GERMAN source where all of today's statements and television discussions come from?

Cheers Holger

Stabswachtmeister Behrens

[jluetjen]

Here's a sketch of the ship's damage. Here's a more modern cut-away that appears to be from an Osprey Book showing some of the interior layout. Here's the interior layout of it's sister ship; the SMS Derfflinger.



If you draw a line of the tip of the bow to below the props, you'll see how most of the forward two engine rooms, and all of the compartments ahead of them would have been under water.

As you look at it, keep in mind the following:

Up to that point, some 8300t of water had entered the ship, causing her to settle by 8.5 m forward and rise by 4.5 m aft.

As one of the authors I quoted pointed out, at 8,300 tons of water in the ship, that is almost as much as the complete displacement of it's escort the G38: 1,051 tonnes. Here's a picture of one of the G38's sister ships:

[Tanzania]

But I repeat my question again:
Does anybody know THE GERMAN source where all of today's statements and television discussions come from?

Cheers Holger

Stabswachtmeister Behrens

Hello jluetejen,

Stabswachtmeister Behrens, (Is this not a military rank from the German Army on land?)
Is there a reference to this name or did I fail to see this?

Thank you for the other schemes too.
Cheers Holger

[jluetjen]

Holger;; This thread on this site lists the rank of wachtsmeister. it's not unusual to see 'ober" versions of NCO ranks, even if they aren't included in each list. I've noticed that Imperial German Naval ranks are not well documented on the web.

Judging by the style of the writing and the details provided, I'm guessing the literary source for that specific account might be either a history of the Lutzow (similar to regimental histories of land units) or else possibly this book.