Gallipoli Wars

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Kaan Caglar
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Post by Kaan Caglar » 02 Feb 2004 18:11

Hi Joel,
Image
Actually his memoirs were published in 1975..
Esat Pasha was one of Ataturks teachers, I dont think such a jealousy would exist.. He was too old by the way,he was in his sixties to attend such a movement..
About Yusuf Izzeddin,
He really did kill himself according to Gallipoli by Buket Uzuner, because he was a kind of paranoic, there was too much pressure on him.. He always believed that he would die just like his father Abdülaziz died.. Suicide.
Best Regards
Kaan
Last edited by Kaan Caglar on 03 Feb 2004 19:26, edited 1 time in total.

Kaan Caglar
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Post by Kaan Caglar » 02 Feb 2004 18:14

Matt wrote:Hey KaaN.

That is a great photo & I have studied it previously looking for my grandfather - he is in there somewhere.
Hopefully the attachment works - a picture of my grandfather (back right) with other amputees on a hospital ship.

Matt
Hi Matt,
Very interesting photo,thanks for sharing! :)
Just out of curiosity,which hospital ship is that and do you know the date of the photo?
Thanks in advance
Kaan

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Balrog
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Post by Balrog » 02 Feb 2004 18:30

abdul hadi pasha makes a very good point. many western historians do seem to explain away the defeat of gallipoli as turkish victory be default rather than the hard fought efforts of the turkish army.

i think considering the enormous internal problems(lack of proper equipment,poor medical care,poorly run supply networks) that the ottoman military was going through, it says a lot about the individual courage and self sacrifice of the average ottoman soldier.

in some ways the gallipoli campaign helped to forge the modern turkish nation. mustafa kemal ataturk was put into the political wilderness by a jealous enver pasha. it was the gallipoli campaign that made ataturk into a national figure, a popular and respected commander. it was gallipoli that ataturk would meet many of his future allies(nationalist army commanders) in the coming nationalist struggles of 1918-1923.

without the gallipoli campaign modern turkey might not exist. it was ataturk's reputation,gained at gallipoli,the combat skills, and the loyalty of fellow gallipoli veterans that helped him manuver his way into power and stop the greek advance and what would have been the almost complete dismemberment of modern turkey. that is,the loss of istanbul, the dardenells,adrianople, the turkish coastline and all the turkish islands.all that would have been left for turkey would have been a harsh interior.

perhaps without gallipoli there would have been no Ataturk.

Kaan Caglar
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Post by Kaan Caglar » 02 Feb 2004 18:45

Hello again Joel,
Very nice points you made there..
Lets put it this way;
Turkish soldiers were protecting their own homes, in Gallipoli they KNEW why they were fighting this battle.. ANZACs didnt know why they were fighting for, we can understand this from their doubts in their letters back homes. They were informed that Turks were lazy,monstrous with poor equipments.. The poor equipment part is true but the turkish who fought there was far away from being lazy and monstrous... Many of them were from Istanbul and they were well-eduacted.
Gallipoli flamed the Turkish patrionism which were established in 1800s by Young Turks...
But I dont agree that Mustafa Kemal wouldnt be Ataturk if no Gallipoli.. He showed his talent in Tripoli and other fronts,but it would've been more difficult for him to get command in such a movement..
Best Regards
Kaan

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Balrog
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Post by Balrog » 02 Feb 2004 18:58

i don't want to hijack this thread away from gallipoli, so i won't.

but. my point on ataturk was that a jealous enver pasha had made many efforts to get mustafa kemal out of the way. after the balkan wars, he was sent out of the country to be military atache' to bulgaria. ataturk's experiences in bulgaria would help shape his ideas of westernizing turkey later...

at the begining of the war ataturk was shuffled around by enver pasha and not given the commands that mustafa kemal wanted. it was fate that mustafa kemal was in gallipoli during the invasion.

enver pasha had already badly damaged his reputation with the military disaster in late 1914-15 invasion of the russian empire. one ottoman poet wrote in january 1915, "enver pasha has killed enver pasha."(refering to the russian campaign defeats) it seemed fate had started to open a window of oppurtunity for mustafa kemal ataturk.

ataturk in 1914 was one of many good ottoman officers that emerged from the 1911 turkish-italian war, and the 1st and 2nd balkan wars. ataturk was pushed into obscurity by enver pasha. it was gallipoli that cemented mustafa kemal ataturk's reputation.

i will leave it at that.

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Underestimation

Post by Abdul Hadi Pasha » 03 Feb 2004 00:37

Yes, but I guess part of my point is that as motivated as the Ottoman soldiers were, defending their homes, they were also motivated at Sarakamish (and almost suceeded), but the plan and execution were crazy. At Gallipoli, it's hard to imagine a better performance than delivered by the Fifth Army, from planning, staff work, individual initiative, fighting spirit, decisions made at all levels of command, etc. It was simply a nearly flawless performance. The British made an average number of errors, the Ottomans made hardly any.

And although Mustafa Kemal was an excellent commander whose participation was essential to success, you could say the same for Esat, von Sanders, and many other commanders whose roles were marginalized both by the West and Mustafa Kemal himself, who let's face it, did not exactly have a small ego, but then I guess great men usually don't.

Of course von Sanders liked to take credit for everything, even though he was using a plan drawn up by the Ottoman General Staff during the Balkan Wars before he even arrived in the Ottoman Empire.

Finally, when it comes to underestimating the Ottomans, or talking about their collapse, no other power fought on seven fronts simultaneously or had to stay at war continuously for 12 years and survived! And, after Gallipoli, the Germans had to make an emergency request for 7 Ottoman divisions to shore up the collapsing Austro-Hungarians, help against Rumania, and defend Macedonia. It makes you wonder what would have been possible if Enver had stayed out of the war for a year and completed rebuilding the army.

OK, enough patriotism for one day!

Matt
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Post by Matt » 03 Feb 2004 03:06

Hello again KaaN.

Unfortunately my uncle has all the original photo's & documents, and we no longer talk. (he has an original commendation signed by Churchill) All I know is that he had his leg shattered at Leane's Trench (apparently in a feint to draw troops away from the upcoming attack at Lone Pine) and it was amputated. I assume that is a hospital ship heading to U.K. where he spent time recovering.

Regarding the objectives of the Dardanelles campaign, I am baffled by what they were trying to achieve. If the initial objectives were attained and the allies had control, allowing the ships access to the sea of Marmara - what then? Was the next stage to blast Constantinople into submission and allow landings, thus putting pressure on the Austro/German underbelly? - or were they planning on sending troops along the peninsula to the capital?
What is your opinion on the chance of success, had the initial objectives been attained?
As I mentioned in my earlier post I visited the peninsula, and drove from Istanbul down to the Anzac cove, in my laymans opinion I thought they had no chance of succeeding.

Thanks in advance.
Matt.

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Post by Abdul Hadi Pasha » 03 Feb 2004 18:03

It's hard to say what would have happened had the Gallipoli campaign suceeded; the Entente would have a hard time supplying its forces in the Sea of Marmora, and I don't think it would be politically feasible to actually shell Istanbul - one presumes the Greeks and Russians would be thoroughly alienated by this - and in any case, I would think the government would just move to Anatolia. The British occupation of the city after the War didn't seem to inhibit the Nationalists very much, even with control of the Sultan, so I don't see the Ottomans dropping away here either. Assuming they can secure the area, the only real benefit gained is the ability to supply Russia and virtually no chance of Bulgaria entereing the war. I don't see how the Entente could ever control the Asiatic shore - the Ottoman Army would still be formidable, far more than what Mustafa Kemal had available to work with later, since the army had been demobilized by that point, and so shipping through the Straits would still be threatened, not to mention what uboats and mines could achieve in such confined waters.

All-in-all, it was a reckless idea that depended on astounding underestimation of the Ottomans; Churchill was depending on them reacting like a pre-technological African tribe - running away when the big grey ships show up.

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Another question or two

Post by Abdul Hadi Pasha » 03 Feb 2004 18:08

Kaan:

If that the opinion of one author or the general consensus? It doesn't seem at all settled to me that Abdul Aziz committed suicide - it was one of Izzeddin's aides that shot Husseyn Avni Pasha in retaliation for the perceived murder of the former Sultan, and Abdul Hamid seems to have blamed Midhat.

As for Izzeddin, was he under any more pressure than Reshad or Vahdeddin? The latter especially had a lot to deal with. Given Izzeddin's dislike of the CUP, there is certainly a motive to remove him, with Reshad very sick and Izzeddin next in line for the throne...

Kaan Caglar
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Post by Kaan Caglar » 03 Feb 2004 21:36

Hello Matt and Abdul Hadi Pasha(Its nice to discuss things with you again),
Matt,interesting,thanks for sharing!
About Yusuf Izzeddin:
You aroused my doubts,so I started reading about him. I found an interesting article written by Mehmet Ali Eren.. He claims that it was a murder,commited by Ittihat ve Terakki members. He even states that Abdülazizs death wasnt a suicide. He points out that the gardener of the manor house said that there were faded traces,probably blood on the walls of the room which Izzettin died. That means he tried to escape but failed..
Actually you know after Gallipoli,Izzettin tried to find a way to stop the war and sign a peace treaty but Ittahat insisted on war.. Not only Izzettin,all the Ottoman dystany was against the war.. But Izzettins effort was different and higher. So he may have been targetted by Ittihat and got murdered...
We can never be %100 sure.
Best Regards
Kaan

Kaan Caglar
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Post by Kaan Caglar » 03 Feb 2004 23:07

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Matt
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Post by Matt » 04 Feb 2004 07:02

Fantastic photo's KaaN!

Thanks - I have not seen that photo of the 11th on the London before - great photo.
Regarding the landing site, when I was on the peninsula a few years ago I did a tour, and the guide said that had they landed where they were supposed to they would have been cut down by well prepared machine gun emplacements. It was his information that one of the commanders made the correct decision to land at the less defended positions, thus saving many lives.
Opinions?

I have the text (I copied from the originals years ago) of some letters my grandfather sent back during his time at Gallipoli. I will post what he wrote tommorow.

I also have some photo's I took during my tour of the battlefields which I will post.

Great thread!
Regards.
Matt.

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Post by Matt » 05 Feb 2004 04:42

My Grandfathers letters.
These are transcripts of letters my grandfather sent to his uncle back home in Australia. The Jack he mentions is his younger brother who was also with the 11th, and survived the war.



Base details Zeitoure

July 7th/15


Dear Will

Just a few lines to let you know I am still going strong, although wounded in the right hand.
I had three weeks of solid going and it was hot and heavy, but I daresay you have you have read all about it in the papers before now.
Our lads were grand, couldn't beat them, and they had a tough proposition, everyone who has been through it knows really how tough it was, in fact it was only Bluff and Guts that carried us through.
Anyway I am just about right again now and expect to go back again tomorrow. Jack was gone before I got back here, so I did not see him, but hope he is alright, which is hardly to be expected, considering that he is on a machine gun and a man wants to be lucky to miss getting one while working one of those.
I will try to get him off it when I get back, that is if he wants to come off it.
The first week was the worst of the fighting, and there was about 1/2 of our batt. killed or wounded, but it took them 3 weeks to give me one, and that was a fluke.
I carried a piece of shrapnel around in my hand for a fortnight, still have the piece and will send it home today, I bet that dad will hang onto that.

Well old chap I am going back now and I know what I am going back to, I could easily get out of it and get home because my hand is not really right and I doubt if it ever will be, but there are too many cold footed buggers here malingering now.
I will either be knocked out or get through and I don't think the ammunition is made that will send me out, and if I get through I think I can get a commision.
This place is very hot and when I get away I don't want to see Egypt again. Cairo is about the dirtiest place you could imagine. I hear that you are a farmer now, I hope you are getting on well and when I come back which I certainly will do I will pay uou a visit.
Well old chap I will ring off.
Hoping this finds you well I remain your
Affectionate Nephew Son.
I will just say good health to yourself, excuse writing as paw is not too good yet.

AW
I am going out to have a gay time today in Cairo.
Ta Ta




The following letter was sent from Kingston, Surbiton and District Red Cross Hospital, Surrey. He was wounded August. 6th.



October 31 1915

Dear Will,

Just a few lines to let you know how I am progressing. I suppose got a shocK when you heard that I had lost my leg.
I recieved your letter dated 22/9/15 and one from dad at the same time, they did not then know that I was seriously injured, in fact seemed to think that I was only slightly hit, as a matter of fact, I am not so badly off as some, by joves you see some sights here and I consider myself lucky that I am alive.
The morning I got hit was the hottest I saw it, I was in the firing line with my Platoon, the Turks crept up during the night, and at 4 o'clock am on the 6th August they let us have it, mostly with hand bombs. I was in charge of about 60 ytards of the trench, and that was the hottest corner of the lot.
Some of the new reinforcements only just arrived ran a little wild, someone gave them the order retire, where it came from, I am not sure, but have a fair idea. Anyway some of them did get back and next time I went that way I found a big Turk about 10 yards away from me taking a potshot, I can tell you I ducked, and he missed.
They had got into part of our trench by this time, all my platoon were either killed or wounded. The trench was in an awful state, I had to walk over the men to get along, I went ahoy to the Captain, a damn old fool, and told him for the third time we must have reinforcements, and he wanted to draw all the men out and let the trench go; but I pointed out that we would only have to take it again, so we held on. There was myself, and a bomb thrower looking after about 30 yards to trench, and then came a bomb and got me on the left leg, then I hopped out for a little way, and then I got on a chaps back and as I was going out the reinforcemenbts were going in, they held the trench and took somne prisoners.
The bomb made a hell of a mess of my leg, I had it taken off next day, and I tell you, I had some pain, I did not know a man could suffer so much pain and live. I went to Alexandria, but only stayed there 3 days when they put me on a hospital boat for England.
We arrived at South Hampton on August 30th, got on board the train and came straight to London, and was taken to the King George Hospital, I was there nearly a fortnight when they operated on me and removed about 5 inches of bone, it was a rotton operation and shook me up some, they didn't expect me to pull through for a few nights, but I think I take a bit of killing.
I was fortunate though, I had the best women in the world apart from home to look after me. Sister Underwood, she is a hero and done more I think than anything else to pull me rounbd, it was almost like home, leaving that ward, it fair broke me up.
I was out for the first ride on Friday. It was a private car and we had a real good run round. Went over Waterloo Bridge, through the Strand, Piccadilly Circus and Oxford Circus, through Trafalgar Square. Saw the Nelson Monument, also the Albert Monument and Marble Arch. We then entered Hyde Park, drove right round the Park, saw Rotten Road and Serpentine Lake.
We then drove round to Buckingham Palace (but as George was away in France, did not go in), saw Queen Victoria Statue and The Crimean Statue. We then went to South Kensington and went to a fine old Lady's Place for tea, which was great, after tea we had a sing song and were enjoying outselves splendidly when our car was announced, it came early as there was a fog, and we had to get home before it got too bad.
We had a nice drive home arriving there about 6.30, when I got to my ward the Sister brought me two letters, one from dad and one from you, I was very pleased. The sister thought I had run mad. I came out here yesterday so don't know if I like it yet or not, it is more of a Convalescent Hospital that anything else, just on the outskirts of London anbd plenty of fresh air, what I want to put on a lot of condition yet.
I will not be here very long and I will have to go to Queen Mary's Auxillary Hospital Rockhampton to get my artificial let fitted, and when I get that I will be some class.
I will be home about Easter I think and will take advantage of your invitation to visit you and we'll have a good time.
Now old chap I will conclude with regards and best of luck to yourself and Auntie.

Your Affectionate Nephew
Son

PS: I would like you to tell me how Dad and Mother are taking it don't address letters here, address c/- High Commissioner.
I am having a look at Scotland and also Killarney if I can.

AW



I attached a copy of the description of the action in which he was wounded, from the Official History by C.E.W. Bean.

Regards.
Matt.
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Matt
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Post by Matt » 05 Feb 2004 04:56

My grandfather bought back some souveniers from Gallipoli.

The daggar is Turkish, and still has blood on the blade.

The button is from a Turkish uniform.
The inscription reads
'GAFFAR EL MENOUFIEH'
- I asked the guide when I was at Gallipoli if he knew what it meant. He did not recognise the name, and thought perhaps an officer may have had personalised buttons.
KaaN do you recognise that or know what it means?

Regards.
Matt.
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Matt
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Post by Matt » 05 Feb 2004 05:06

1st photo:
Anzac Cove today.

2nd photo:
The 1st site chosen as a landing zone as it is today. The guide said this was very well defended with machine gun emplacements, and any landing attempt would have been disasterous.

Matt
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