45% of Germany's land mass taken from them, and in this 45%, 98% of the population were german speaking persons. Treaty of Versaille a sham, one French official knew this all to well "Not a solution, merely an armistice for the next twenty years." -1919
Encourage everyone to contribute their thoughts (emotions) on this topic. I feel the treaty was erected out of spite (understandable) but ultimately lead to the outbreak of ww2. This conclusion may seem obvious, but to anyone out there who feels otherwise, this topic is intended for you.
Treaty of Versaille conditions
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Barbarossa
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45% seems a bit high. Could be though, nothing compared what they would lose in 1945.
But consider for one moment while you talk about poor Germany what Germany demanded of the Russians in 1917. There is no comparison, nor justification for the Germans to take so much from Russia. Given that alone I have no sympathy for Germany in 1918, is no more or less then what they did themselves. Check out the peace with Russia and you will see what the Germans took.
But consider for one moment while you talk about poor Germany what Germany demanded of the Russians in 1917. There is no comparison, nor justification for the Germans to take so much from Russia. Given that alone I have no sympathy for Germany in 1918, is no more or less then what they did themselves. Check out the peace with Russia and you will see what the Germans took.
After nine weeks of discussions without agreement, the German Army was ordered to resume its advance into Russia. On 3rd March 1918, with German troops moving towards Petrograd, Vladimir Lenin ordered Trotsky to accept the German terms. The Brest-Litovsk Treaty resulted in the Russians surrendering the Ukraine, Finland, the Baltic provinces, the Caucasus and Poland.
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Barbarossa
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That i'm sure is a completely valid point, but what i'm getting at is the fact that the treaty was the fuel that fed the fire of the german people. The germans may have taken too much from the russians, but what i want you guys to comment on is how the treaty (or how i see it) was a huge contributor to the onslaught of ww2.
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Robert Zeller
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Robert Zeller
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They were not going to start any new free States! They were building the Greater German Empire. We are talking about the hated Poles here, free!?
And who is "we"? Were you part of the Nazi Germany?
While they were at it they used huge amounts of Gold to fund the Bolsheviks in Russia, Germany has some blame to bear for the rise of the Communist Bolsheviks in Russia to start with.
As far as the treaty goes, the US did not ratify the Versailles treaty, but sought a separate peace with the Germans. France was the main force behind its harshness, but considering their loses in the war could be understood to a point.
And who is "we"? Were you part of the Nazi Germany?
While they were at it they used huge amounts of Gold to fund the Bolsheviks in Russia, Germany has some blame to bear for the rise of the Communist Bolsheviks in Russia to start with.
As far as the treaty goes, the US did not ratify the Versailles treaty, but sought a separate peace with the Germans. France was the main force behind its harshness, but considering their loses in the war could be understood to a point.
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Logan Hartke
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Robert Zeller
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Barbarossa
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Yes i agree, thats why i mention that the treaty is understandable, but not justifiable. The french laid the ground work for their own demise, and the ground work for ww2. This is what i'm talking about, nothing else. Please respond to my topic, if you wish to speak of other facts please start a new a topic.Caldric wrote:
As far as the treaty goes, the US did not ratify the Versailles treaty, but sought a separate peace with the Germans. France was the main force behind its harshness, but considering their loses in the war could be understood to a point.
I would appreciate comments that pertain to my topic, and my topic is the treaty of versaille was the leading contributor to the onslaught of ww2. If you wish to debate this stance, please do so.
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Robert Zeller
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Barbarossa
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That may full well be true, but opinions like that have no place in this forum, i'm sure marcus can attest to this fact. Thank you very much for your responses, but leave the hatred out.Robert Zeller wrote:Ok, yes, the treaty of versailles is what made WWII possible, no evil god-awful treaty from hell, no World War II,
France signed that "Let's get our ass kicked 20 years down the road" treaty, and deserved everything they got except liberation
People are always yelling about the Treaty, but I wonder how many of those have actually read it?
I agree some parts of it were harsh but not all. In all reality there was a good chance that Germany would have had a Red Revolution if they did not seek peace. There was little choice in the matter, they could seek peace or fight to the end which would have only made peace that much more difficult. The worse piece was what they gave to Poland, the seperation was a problem for future peace. This was the worse mistake of the treaty in my opinion. But hindsight is easier then foresight they say.
Here is a link to the entire treaty:
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/versailles.html
I agree some parts of it were harsh but not all. In all reality there was a good chance that Germany would have had a Red Revolution if they did not seek peace. There was little choice in the matter, they could seek peace or fight to the end which would have only made peace that much more difficult. The worse piece was what they gave to Poland, the seperation was a problem for future peace. This was the worse mistake of the treaty in my opinion. But hindsight is easier then foresight they say.
Here is a link to the entire treaty:
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/versailles.html
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Barbarossa
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Precisely my point. The french-english should not have used this opportunity to give it to the germans; although, in light of the severe casualties one can obviously see the motivation behind the treaty. However, regardless of the casualties, money, or anything esle for that matter, it was a grave mistake and one they both would pay for with the lives of civilians as well as military personel.Caldric wrote:The worse piece was what they gave to Poland, the seperation was a problem for future peace. This was the worse mistake of the treaty in my opinion.
The treaty doesn't justify german agression, but it certainly is obvious the treaty was a contributor to the outbreak of war in 1939. So far no one seems to be disputing this, and caldric went as far as to agree with the absurdness of the poland conditions.
I'm a firm believer in karma, when you do something you know/feel is wrong, you'll pay for it down the road with a misfortune of your own. This is exactly what happened with the french. They knew what they were implementing was not just, and they should have known they would pay for it down the road with a misfortune of their own.
I don't think the treaty of Brest-Litovsk was as bad as the Versailles treaty. Although it did contain harsh measures in as much as the land that was ceeded, although it did insist that Russia remove her troops from Finland, Ukraine, Estonia etc. But we must remember. Germany was involved in an ongoing war when Litovsk was signed. She was being starved in what amounted to a siege by the allies. AFAIR, the russian land ceeded contained good farming land, which would have helped feed German's.
The Versailles treaty on the other hand was pure malice and was frowned upon by a lot of people at the time, including French. It was signed when all Nations had stopped fighting and it demanded that Germany pay "reparations" for "starting the war". This was simply a lie as Germany was most definitely not responsible for "starting the war" and was unfairly blamed for it. It also called for Germany to pay these "reparations" until the '50's! The land taken from Germany too was bound to cause problems further down the line.
Versailles destroyed Germany, the treaty of Brest-Litovsk did not destroy Russia.
TREATY OF BREST-LITOVSK
Article I.
Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, and Turkey, for the one part, and Russia, for the other part, declare that the state of war between them has ceased. They are resolved to live henceforth in peace and amity with one another.
Article II.
The contracting parties will refrain from any agitation or propaganda against the Government or the public and military institutions of the other party. In so far as this obligation devolves upon Russia, it holds good also for the territories occupied by the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance.
Article III.
The territories lying to the west of the line agreed upon by the contracting parties which formerly belonged to Russia, will no longer be subject to Russian sovereignty; the line agreed upon is traced on the map submitted as an essential part of this treaty of peace. The exact fixation of the line will be established by a Russo-German commission.
No obligations whatever toward Russia shall devolve upon the territories referred to, arising from the fact that they formerly belonged to Russia.
Russia refrains from all interference in the internal relations of these territories. Germany and Austria-Hungary purpose to determine the future status of these territories in agreement with their population.
Article IV.
As soon as a general peace is concluded and Russian demobilization is carried out completely Germany will evacuate the territory lying to the east of the line designated in paragraph 1 of Article III, in so far as Article IV does not determine otherwise.
Russia will do all within her power to insure the immediate evacuation of the provinces of eastern Anatolia and their lawful return to Turkey.
The districts of Erdehan, Kars, and Batum will likewise and without delay be cleared of the russian troops. Russia will not interfere in the reorganization of the national and international relations of these districts, but leave it to the population of these districts, to carry out this reorganization in agreement with the neighboring States, especially with Turkey.
Article V.
Russia will, without delay, carry out the full demobilization of her army inclusive of those units recently organized by the present Government. Furthermore, Russia will either bring her warships into russian ports and there detain them until the day of the conclusion of a general peace, or disarm them forthwith. Warships of the States which continue in the state of war with the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance, in so far as they are within Russian sovereignty, will be treated as Russian warships.
The barred zone in the Arctic Ocean continues as such until the conclusion of a general peace. In the Baltic sea, and, as far as Russian power extends within the Black sea, removal of the mines will be proceeded with at once. Merchant navigation within these maritime regions is free and will be resumed at once. Mixed commissions will be organized to formulate the more detailed regulations, especially to inform merchant ships with regard to restricted lanes. The navigation lanes are always to be kept free from floating mines.
Article VI.
Russia obligates herself to conclude peace at once with the Ukrainian People's Republic and to recognize the treaty of peace between that State and the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance. The Ukrainian territory will, without delay, be cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard. Russia is to put an end to all agitation or propaganda against the Government or the public institutions of the Ukrainian People's Republic.
Esthonia and Livonia will likewise, without delay, be cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard. The eastern boundary of Esthonia runs, in general along the river Narwa. The eastern boundary of Livonia crosses, in general, lakes Peipus and Pskow, to the southwestern corner of the latter, then across Lake Luban in the direction of Livenhof on the Dvina. Esthonia and Livonia will be occupied by a German police force until security is insured by proper national institutions and until public order has been established. Russia will liberate at once all arrested or deported inhabitants of Esthonia and Livonia, and insures the safe return of all deported Esthonians and Livonians.
Finland and the Aaland Islands will immediately be cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard, and the Finnish ports of the Russian fleet and of the Russian naval forces. So long as the ice prevents the transfer of warships into Russian ports, only limited forces will remain on board the warships. Russia is to put an end to all agitation or propaganda against the Government or the public institutions of Finland.
The fortresses built on the Aaland Islands are to be removed as soon as possible. As regards the permanent non-fortification of these islands as well as their further treatment in respect to military technical navigation matters, a special agreement is to be concluded between Germany, Finland, Russia, and Sweden; there exists an understanding to the effect that, upon Germany's desire, still other countries bordering upon the Baltic Sea would be consulted in this matter.
Article VII.
In view of the fact that Persia and Afghanistan are free and independent States, the contracting parties obligate themselves to respect the political and economic independence and the territorial integrity of these states.
Article VIII.
The prisoners of war of both parties will be released to return to their homeland. The settlement of the questions connected therewith will be effected through the special treaties provided for in Article XII.
Article IX.
The contracting parties mutually renounce compensation for their war expenses, i.e., of the public expenditures for the conduct of the war, as well as compensation for war losses, i.e., such losses as were caused [by] them and their nationals within the war zones by military measures, inclusive of all requisitions effected in enemy country.
Article X.
Diplomatic and consular relations between the contracting parties will be resumed immediately upon the ratification of the treaty of peace. As regards the reciprocal admission of consuls, separate agreements are reserved.
Article XI.
As regards the economic relations between the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance and Russia the regulations contained in Appendices II-V are determinative....
Article XII.
The reestablishment of public and private legal relations, the exchange of war prisoners and interned citizens, the question of amnesty as well as the question anent the treatment of merchant ships which have come into the power of the opponent, will be regulated in separate treaties with Russia which form an essential part of the general treaty of peace, and, as far as possible, go into force simultaneously with the latter.
Article XIII.
In the interpretation of this treaty, the German and Russian texts are authoritative for the relations between Germany and Russia; the German, the Hungarian, and Russian texts for the relations between Austria-Hungry and Russia; the Bulgarian and Russian texts for the relations between Bulgaria and Russia; and the Turkish and Russian texts for the relations between Turkey and Russia.
Article XIV.
The present treaty of peace will be ratified. The documents of ratification shall, as soon as possible, be exchanged in Berlin. The Russian Government obligates itself, upon the desire of one of the powers of the Quadruple Alliance, to execute the exchange of the documents of ratification within a period of two weeks. Unless otherwise provided for in its articles, in its annexes, or in the additional treaties, the treaty of peace enters into force at the moment of its ratification.
In testimony whereof the Plenipotentiaries have signed this treaty with their own hand.
Executed in quintuplicate at Brest-Litovsk, 3 March, 1918.
Versailles is too long to be reproduced here, but its on this site...
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/menu.htm
Tony
The Versailles treaty on the other hand was pure malice and was frowned upon by a lot of people at the time, including French. It was signed when all Nations had stopped fighting and it demanded that Germany pay "reparations" for "starting the war". This was simply a lie as Germany was most definitely not responsible for "starting the war" and was unfairly blamed for it. It also called for Germany to pay these "reparations" until the '50's! The land taken from Germany too was bound to cause problems further down the line.
Versailles destroyed Germany, the treaty of Brest-Litovsk did not destroy Russia.
TREATY OF BREST-LITOVSK
Article I.
Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, and Turkey, for the one part, and Russia, for the other part, declare that the state of war between them has ceased. They are resolved to live henceforth in peace and amity with one another.
Article II.
The contracting parties will refrain from any agitation or propaganda against the Government or the public and military institutions of the other party. In so far as this obligation devolves upon Russia, it holds good also for the territories occupied by the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance.
Article III.
The territories lying to the west of the line agreed upon by the contracting parties which formerly belonged to Russia, will no longer be subject to Russian sovereignty; the line agreed upon is traced on the map submitted as an essential part of this treaty of peace. The exact fixation of the line will be established by a Russo-German commission.
No obligations whatever toward Russia shall devolve upon the territories referred to, arising from the fact that they formerly belonged to Russia.
Russia refrains from all interference in the internal relations of these territories. Germany and Austria-Hungary purpose to determine the future status of these territories in agreement with their population.
Article IV.
As soon as a general peace is concluded and Russian demobilization is carried out completely Germany will evacuate the territory lying to the east of the line designated in paragraph 1 of Article III, in so far as Article IV does not determine otherwise.
Russia will do all within her power to insure the immediate evacuation of the provinces of eastern Anatolia and their lawful return to Turkey.
The districts of Erdehan, Kars, and Batum will likewise and without delay be cleared of the russian troops. Russia will not interfere in the reorganization of the national and international relations of these districts, but leave it to the population of these districts, to carry out this reorganization in agreement with the neighboring States, especially with Turkey.
Article V.
Russia will, without delay, carry out the full demobilization of her army inclusive of those units recently organized by the present Government. Furthermore, Russia will either bring her warships into russian ports and there detain them until the day of the conclusion of a general peace, or disarm them forthwith. Warships of the States which continue in the state of war with the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance, in so far as they are within Russian sovereignty, will be treated as Russian warships.
The barred zone in the Arctic Ocean continues as such until the conclusion of a general peace. In the Baltic sea, and, as far as Russian power extends within the Black sea, removal of the mines will be proceeded with at once. Merchant navigation within these maritime regions is free and will be resumed at once. Mixed commissions will be organized to formulate the more detailed regulations, especially to inform merchant ships with regard to restricted lanes. The navigation lanes are always to be kept free from floating mines.
Article VI.
Russia obligates herself to conclude peace at once with the Ukrainian People's Republic and to recognize the treaty of peace between that State and the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance. The Ukrainian territory will, without delay, be cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard. Russia is to put an end to all agitation or propaganda against the Government or the public institutions of the Ukrainian People's Republic.
Esthonia and Livonia will likewise, without delay, be cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard. The eastern boundary of Esthonia runs, in general along the river Narwa. The eastern boundary of Livonia crosses, in general, lakes Peipus and Pskow, to the southwestern corner of the latter, then across Lake Luban in the direction of Livenhof on the Dvina. Esthonia and Livonia will be occupied by a German police force until security is insured by proper national institutions and until public order has been established. Russia will liberate at once all arrested or deported inhabitants of Esthonia and Livonia, and insures the safe return of all deported Esthonians and Livonians.
Finland and the Aaland Islands will immediately be cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard, and the Finnish ports of the Russian fleet and of the Russian naval forces. So long as the ice prevents the transfer of warships into Russian ports, only limited forces will remain on board the warships. Russia is to put an end to all agitation or propaganda against the Government or the public institutions of Finland.
The fortresses built on the Aaland Islands are to be removed as soon as possible. As regards the permanent non-fortification of these islands as well as their further treatment in respect to military technical navigation matters, a special agreement is to be concluded between Germany, Finland, Russia, and Sweden; there exists an understanding to the effect that, upon Germany's desire, still other countries bordering upon the Baltic Sea would be consulted in this matter.
Article VII.
In view of the fact that Persia and Afghanistan are free and independent States, the contracting parties obligate themselves to respect the political and economic independence and the territorial integrity of these states.
Article VIII.
The prisoners of war of both parties will be released to return to their homeland. The settlement of the questions connected therewith will be effected through the special treaties provided for in Article XII.
Article IX.
The contracting parties mutually renounce compensation for their war expenses, i.e., of the public expenditures for the conduct of the war, as well as compensation for war losses, i.e., such losses as were caused [by] them and their nationals within the war zones by military measures, inclusive of all requisitions effected in enemy country.
Article X.
Diplomatic and consular relations between the contracting parties will be resumed immediately upon the ratification of the treaty of peace. As regards the reciprocal admission of consuls, separate agreements are reserved.
Article XI.
As regards the economic relations between the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance and Russia the regulations contained in Appendices II-V are determinative....
Article XII.
The reestablishment of public and private legal relations, the exchange of war prisoners and interned citizens, the question of amnesty as well as the question anent the treatment of merchant ships which have come into the power of the opponent, will be regulated in separate treaties with Russia which form an essential part of the general treaty of peace, and, as far as possible, go into force simultaneously with the latter.
Article XIII.
In the interpretation of this treaty, the German and Russian texts are authoritative for the relations between Germany and Russia; the German, the Hungarian, and Russian texts for the relations between Austria-Hungry and Russia; the Bulgarian and Russian texts for the relations between Bulgaria and Russia; and the Turkish and Russian texts for the relations between Turkey and Russia.
Article XIV.
The present treaty of peace will be ratified. The documents of ratification shall, as soon as possible, be exchanged in Berlin. The Russian Government obligates itself, upon the desire of one of the powers of the Quadruple Alliance, to execute the exchange of the documents of ratification within a period of two weeks. Unless otherwise provided for in its articles, in its annexes, or in the additional treaties, the treaty of peace enters into force at the moment of its ratification.
In testimony whereof the Plenipotentiaries have signed this treaty with their own hand.
Executed in quintuplicate at Brest-Litovsk, 3 March, 1918.
Versailles is too long to be reproduced here, but its on this site...
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/menu.htm
Tony