Spanish mortars

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
Sturm78
Member
Posts: 16980
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Sturm78 » 02 Jan 2016 21:32

Hi all,

Looking at the 120mm Franco M1939 and 120mm ECIA-Valero mortars, I think they are very similar in his general configuration.
In addition, the Franco mortar was manufactured by Esperanza y Cia in Marquina, ie, in the same factory where the mortar 120mm ECIA-Valero will be manufactured later

Then my question is: is the mortar 120mm ECIA-Valero a development of mortar Franco ??
Was the mortar Franco manufactured in serie ??
When the 120mm ECIA-Valero mortar entered in service with Spanish Army ??

Any aditional information and/or image will be wellcome...

Regards Sturm78

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5718
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Ironmachine » 01 Feb 2016 18:22

Sturm78 wrote:Was the mortar Franco manufactured in serie ??
Yes, the 120mm "Franco" mortar was produced in series. The article about the "Franco" mortar employment by the Blue Division that I mentioned earlier in this thread states that the number of such mortars produced given by different sources is usually 48, but the authors of the articles had found a document in the Archivo General Militar that shows the Spanish Army had 71 "Franco mortars" in 1963.

Sturm78
Member
Posts: 16980
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Sturm78 » 04 Feb 2016 10:21

Thank you, Ironmachine

Sturm78

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5718
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Ironmachine » 04 Feb 2016 14:15

If you are interested in the "Franco" mortar, that article is a very valuable source, much more so as there seems to be very little information available. It has a number of photographs of the mortars both in Russia and in Spain, plus good information about the mortar's story. Despite its title, the information provided is in no way limited to the mortar's service with the Blue Division.

Sturm78
Member
Posts: 16980
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Sturm78 » 07 Feb 2016 18:17

Ironmachine wrote
If you are interested in the "Franco" mortar, that article is a very valuable source, much more so as there seems to be very little information available. It has a number of photographs of the mortars both in Russia and in Spain, plus good information about the mortar's story. Despite its title, the information provided is in no way limited to the mortar's service with the Blue Division.
Do you have this article in pdf format ?? I would be very grateful ...

Regards Sturm78

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5718
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Ironmachine » 07 Feb 2016 18:59

No, but the magazine is still available through the editor's website:
http://www.afeditores.com/product.php?id_product=144

Sturm78
Member
Posts: 16980
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Sturm78 » 10 Feb 2016 10:28

Thank you, Ironmachine

Sturm78

Sturm78
Member
Posts: 16980
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Sturm78 » 25 Feb 2016 10:13

Hi Ironmachine and all,

I got the magazine but is rather disappointing.... :(

On the one hand, the article just diverted to personal achievements of one of the members of the Blue Division that handled these mortars and secondly the pictures, but a couple of them, are of very poor quality.
Beyond that, the article includes two different tables with the main technical characteristics of the mortar but with conflicting data: In one of them, it is given a total weight of 691kg and in the other of 848Kg. In one it is given a maximum range of 7000m and the 6400m in the another one... :?

Finally both in this article as in the scans of Carnet Instructor - Descripcion del mortero Franco de 120mm y su granada, posted by Ironmachine here on 26 Oct 2011, is given a barrel length of 2m but when studying the images is evident a length of tube much greater, of around 3m, unless servants were dwarfs.... :?

Sturm78
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

ROLAND1369
Member
Posts: 1306
Joined: 26 May 2007 15:22
Location: USA

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by ROLAND1369 » 25 Feb 2016 18:18

I would not agree with the logic of doubting the length of 0f Three meters. I lived in Spain during the mid 1960s and I found that the average Spanish male of the period was about 5 feet tall. At 5feet 11 inches I looked like a giant in downtown Madrid. Because of this the barrel length of 3 meters would be about right if you assume the gunners are no more than 5 feet in height.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5718
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Ironmachine » 25 Feb 2016 19:11

Sturm78 wrote:I got the magazine but is rather disappointing.... :(
Well, not for me.
Sturm78 wrote:On the one hand, the article just diverted to personal achievements of one of the members of the Blue Division that handled these mortars and secondly the pictures, but a couple of them, are of very poor quality.
Yes, the article digress about the Blue División and Fernández Medrano, but still it has more information about the "Franco" mortars than any other source I have seen. And yes, the pictures are of por quality, but again they are valuable because the amount of graphic information about those mortars available is rather limited. However, this is just a matter of taste and taste is so personal, that's why I usually don't recommend books and the like...
Sturm78 wrote:Beyond that, the article includes two different tables with the main technical characteristics of the mortar but with conflicting data: In one of them, it is given a total weight of 691kg and in the other of 848Kg. In one it is given a maximum range of 7000m and the 6400m in the another one... :?
There is no conflicting data really. If you read the article carefully, you will note that the first table is for the first mortars produced (that can be considered prototypes), and the latter one is for the mortars in service in 1942, after a number of modifications.
Sturm78 wrote:Finally both in this article as in the scans of Carnet Instructor - Descripcion del mortero Franco de 120mm y su granada, posted by Ironmachine here on 26 Oct 2011, is given a barrel length of 2m but when studying the images is evident a length of tube much greater, of around 3m, unless servants were dwarfs....
That's probably because you are not considering that not all the barrel is barrel. In other words, the barrel length is for the barrel, not including the "culata":
mortar.jpg
The part marked in red is the barrel, the part marked in blue is the "culata".
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Sturm78
Member
Posts: 16980
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Sturm78 » 27 Feb 2016 09:14

Ironmachine wrote
There is no conflicting data really. If you read the article carefully, you will note that the first table is for the first mortars produced (that can be considered prototypes), and the latter one is for the mortars in service in 1942, after a number of modifications.
Ummmhhh....The amendments relating to the suspension and reinforcement of several pieces added to the mortar.....150kg of weight !! ....and reduced the range in 600m !! 8O
Ironmachine wrote
That's probably because you are not considering that not all the barrel is barrel. In other words, the barrel length is for the barrel, not including the "culata":
Thank you very much for the clarification..... :wink: I guess the "culata" housed the brake and recovery mechanisms, no ?? . Anyway, the total lenght of the barrel + "culata" would be around 3m more or less...

Regards Sturm78

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5718
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Ironmachine » 27 Feb 2016 17:23

Sturm78 wrote:Ummmhhh....The amendments relating to the suspension and reinforcement of several pieces added to the mortar.....150kg of weight !! ....and reduced the range in 600m !! 8
IIRC, in the article there is also a mention about modifying the fins of the projectile. This could have changed the ballistics and reduced the range. There could have been other changes, like a reduction of the propelling charge or an increase in weight of the projectile...
Sturm78 wrote:I guess the "culata" housed the brake and recovery mechanisms, no ??
Yes.
Sturm78 wrote:Anyway, the total lenght of the barrel + "culata" would be around 3m more or less...
Somewhat less than 3m. There is an schematic drawing at the end of the Carnet del Instructor; working from the only measurement that is shown in the drawing, I would say that a length of 2 meters is right for the barrel and the "culata" has a length of about 0.7-0.75 meters including the "ball" that goes into the baseplate.

Sturm78
Member
Posts: 16980
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: Spanish mortars

Post by Sturm78 » 29 Feb 2016 11:49

Thanks, again, Ironmachine

I suppose the 120mm Ecia-Valero M1942 is the succesor model of this one, is it not ??
Any "wartime" image of this model ??

Sturm78

Return to “Spanish Civil War & Legion Condor”