Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
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carius
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby carius » 16 Mar 2016 07:21

lc.JPG
Image from ebay.de №221515984097
George
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Sturm78
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Sturm78 » 20 Mar 2016 15:33

Hi all,

A Junkers Ju 52 sani plane. Legion Condor ???

Image from Ebay
Sturm78
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Maxschnauzer » 03 Aug 2016 23:31

Fieseler Fi 156 Storch
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Maxschnauzer » 09 Sep 2016 10:14

SM.81
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Maxschnauzer » 19 Nov 2016 23:20

A very nice photo of Ju 87A-1 No. 29-4. I believe she was later damaged by flak and sent back to Junkers for repair:
s-l1600 (35).jpg

The captured DC-2 "Capitan Vara de Rey" which became Franco's personal aircraft:
Capitan Vara de Rey.jpg
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Maxschnauzer » 07 Jan 2017 00:12

Vultee V-1A formerly of the Republican Air Force and American Airlines before that:
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kglass
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby kglass » 07 Jan 2017 05:21

Hello Ironmachine:

Ironmachine wrote:
Maxschnauzer wrote:5-1 was the prototype He 112 V6...

No, it was not V6.
There has been a long-standing controversy about the real identity of 5-1, whether it was V3, V4, V5 or V6. However,
researcher José Luis González Serrano published in the journal "Aeroplano" nº 27 the real identity of the plane, found in a Condor Legion's technical report, Technischer Erfahrungsbericht an Fluggerät VK/88 in der Zeit vom 1.12.36 bis 15.1.37, dated 15 January 1937: it was really V3 (WerkNummer 1292, D-IDMO).


Does that Condor Legion's technical report, Technischer Erfahrungsbericht an Fluggerät VK/88 in der Zeit vom 1.12.36 bis 15.1.37 establish the identities of the Bf-109Vs, 6-1 and 6-3?

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Ironmachine
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Ironmachine » 07 Jan 2017 09:49

The article mentions that other documents from the Air Ministry of the Third Reich state that the prototypes sent to Spain were the V3, V4 and V6. The Technischer Erfahrungsbericht an Fluggerät VK/88 in der Zeit vom 1.12.36 bis 15.1.37 mention the V3 and V4 because the V6 had still not reached Spain on that date. Unfortunately, no document mentions the numerals applied in Spain. However, the Technischer Erfahrungsbericht... mentions that the v3 was equipped with Jumo 210C engine with a three-blade propeller, while the V4 had a Jumo 210B and a two-blade propeller. The article says that, as the few pictures of 6-1 known to the autor show it with a two-blade propeller, V4 was probably 6-1, while v3 was 6-2. The 6-3 was assigned to the V6 (though it was later reused in a Bf 109B-1).
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby kglass » 07 Jan 2017 17:29

Hello Ironmachine,

Thank you very much for the quick reply to my query. I have two additional questions for you.

Does the journal "Aeroplano" No.27 article mention a ducted spinner trial conducted with one of the Bf-109V/A planes? See attached photo from page 55 of 'Legion Condor' by Ries Ring.

Why is it thought the matricule o6-3 was first applied to the Bf-109V-6 and then later to a Bf-109B-1?
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Ironmachine
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Ironmachine » 08 Jan 2017 10:05

Hello kglass,

Does the journal "Aeroplano" No.27 article mention a ducted spinner trial conducted with one of the Bf-109V/A planes? See attached photo from page 55 of 'Legion Condor' by Ries Ring.

No, there is no mention about a ducted spinner trial in the article.

Why is it thought the matricule o6-3 was first applied to the Bf-109V-6 and then later to a Bf-109B-1?

The article talks about the total number of Bf-109s that arrived in Spain during the SCW, and the author mentions his belief that they were 139. As the highest numeral used was 6-131, his opinion is that eight numerals were reused. He mentions 6-6, 6-10, 6-16 and 6-17 (from the context, I think his opinion is based on photographic evidence). Regarding the 6-3, he writes:
Y, además, también nos consta que la 6-3 lo fue primero por el prototipo V6 y, después, por un ejemplar de la versión B-1.

Translated, it would mean: And we also know that the 6-3 was first used for the V6 prototype and then by a plane of the B-1 versión. That's all.

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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby kglass » 08 Jan 2017 15:06

Hello Ironmachine,

Thanks again for your quick replies to my queries. I have read of those eight additional Bf-109B air frames elsewhere, by noted author Juan Arreas Cerda I believe.

Is it possible those eight air frames were not assembled as a unit, but instead held back for use as spare parts? The leading edge slats of the Bf-109V/As sent to Spain were reported as being too effective. Is it possible some surviving Bf-109V/A air frames were converted to Bf-109B status, by replacing their Bf-109A series wings with those from the Bf-109B series? Photos exist showing matricules o6-6/6o6 and o6-10/6o10 with Bf-109B series wings. I would speculate similar conversions occurred with the o6-1/6o1 and o6-16/6o16 air frames. But I have not yet been able to determine, from available photos of those air frames, the positions of their under wing engine oil coolers, which determines an A or B variant status. If wing swapping was done, it is most likely the engines were changed out also, but that would not be visible in photos.

The only photos I have seen of matricule 6o17 show it finished in a factory applied camouflage of RLM 70 and 71 over RLM 65. None of the photos I have seen of it are from a vantage point favorable to showing it's under wing engine oil cooler, to determine it was a Bf-109A or Bf-109B variant.

Regards,
Ken Glass

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Ironmachine
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Ironmachine » 08 Jan 2017 16:36

For what's worth, these are the author's arguments regarding the eight reused numerals:
A esta conclusión hemos llegado, asumiendo, por un lado, que, sin contar los prototipos, los primeros quince aviones que vinieron a España eran de la versión Bf 109A (y casi con absoluta certeza de la variante A-0), con hélice Schwarz de madera, palas anchas y con buje cubierto, es decir, sin que a través de ella pudiera dispararse una ametralladora. Estos ejemplares habrían estado matriculados desde el 6-4 hasta el 6-18, con números de pequeño tamaño y sin estar separados los dos grupos de dígitos de que constaban por el círculo negro del fuselaje, sino por un guión.
Por otro lado, hay muchas pruebas fotográficas en las que algunos de esos “mismos” aviones aparecen con hélices VDM, metálicas, de palas estrechas y con buje apto para albergar el tubo de una ametralladora. Y, además, los números de sus matrículas son de bastante mayor tamaño y están separados por el círculo negro. En la literatura consultada, los diversos autores afirman que el nuevo aspecto de estos ejemplares era debido, simplemente, a que, en España, se les había sustituido la hélice Schwarz de madera por una VDM metálica y, coincidiendo con ello, se había aprovechado para modificar el aspecto de sus matrículas e, incluso, para aplicar pintura de camuflaje a algunos de ellos. Pero nosotros disentimos totalmente de esa opinión, pues creemos que unos y otros eran aviones distintos, de diferentes versiones y variantes, y que habían salido de fábrica y llegado a nuestro país con dichas diferencias, y que cuando fueron perdiéndose (ya sea por accidente o en combate) o devueltos a Alemania, sus matrículas fueron asignadas, por segunda vez, a otros aviones, procedentes de fábrica o de unidades de la Luftwaffe. Entre otras cosas, porque ¿qué sentido práctico tendría, en plena lucha por lograr el dominio en el aire, mantener en tierra durante un tiempo precioso ocho aviones de este tipo para introducirles esos cambios?

That translated into English means something like:
"We have arrived to this conclusion assuming, on one hand, that, not counting the prototypes, the first fifteen planes that came to Spain were of the Bf 109A versión (and almost certainly of the A-0 variant), with Schwarz wood propeller, wide blades and with covered hub, i.e, throught which a machine-gun could not be shot. These specimens would have been numbered from 6-4 to 6-18, with small size numbers and not separated by the black circle in the fuselage, but by a hyphen.
On the other hand, there is photographic evidence that some of these "same" planes appear with VDM metal propellers, narrow blades and hubs suitable for housing the tube of a machine-gun. And, in addition, the numbers of their licenses are quite larger in size and are separated by the black circle. In the literature consulted, various authors say that the new aspect of these planes was simply due to the fact that, in Spain, they had had the Schwarz wood propeller replaced by a metallic VDM propeller and, at the same time, they had the appearance of their numbers modified and even a camouflage paint scheme was applied to some of them. But we disagree, because we believe that they were different aircraft of different versions and variants, and that they had left the factory and arrived in our country with those differences, and that when they were lost (either by accident or in combat) or returned to Germany, their numerals were assigned, a second time, to other planes from the factory or from Luftwaffe units. Among other things, because what practical sense would it have had, while fighting for the control of the air space, to keep on land for a precious time eight airplanes to introduce these changes?"

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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby kglass » 09 Jan 2017 14:43

Hello Ironman,

Thank you very much for posting those translations of the 'Aeroplano' No27 article.

Regards,
Ken Glass

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Maxschnauzer » 13 Feb 2017 00:08

A group of FIAT CR 32's
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Arto O
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Re: Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain

Postby Arto O » 22 Mar 2017 20:35

Source in the photo.
C45GM6[1].JPG
C45GM8[1].JPG
CPM9NM[1].JPG
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