die wehrmacht: "Wir kampften in Spanien"
die wehrmacht: "Wir kampften in Spanien"
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The good points of the Condor legion is that in Spain, German forces fought a relatively clean war. Even their bombing civilian towns was limited by later standards (Guernica) and coincided with later British and American air war policies.Lars EP wrote:What was good about them?StG-44 wrote:ah good old legion condor
my grandfather served there..
but i never heard any tales...
Greetings
christian
Regards --- Lars
In any case the civilian deaths in Guernica were exagerated by Republican side. The bombing requested by Spanish Nationalist regular units and local right wing Basque militias advancing on the town because town had a left wing reputation as well as industrial targets (small ones).
Last edited by Deterance on 28 Apr 2003, 00:11, edited 1 time in total.
That you can tell the dead at Guernica. A clean war...? There is no such thing as the recent events in Iraq should clearly have proven. The Condor legion was a bunch a fascist fighting against a democraticly elected government!Deterance wrote:The good points of the Condor legion is that in Spain, German forces fought a relatively clean war. Even their bombing civilian towns was limited by later standards (Guernica) and coincided with later British and American air war policies.Lars EP wrote:What was good about them?StG-44 wrote:ah good old legion condor
my grandfather served there..
but i never heard any tales...
Greetings
christian
Regards --- Lars
In any case the civilian deaths in Guernica were exagerated by Republican side. The bombing requested by Spanish Nationalist regular units and local right wing Basque militias advancing on the town because town had a left wing reputation as well as industrial targets (small ones).
Regards --- Lars EP
[German forces fought a relatively clean war
That you can tell the dead at Guernica. A clean war...? There is no such thing as the recent events in Iraq should clearly have proven. The Condor legion was a bunch a fascist fighting against a democraticly elected government!
Regards --- Lars EP[/quote]
Dear Lars,
I said that the Condor Legion fought a "relatively clean war".
You are correct.....there are no clean wars. This of course holds true for both the Republican and Nationalist sides of the conflict.
The Condor Legion was fighting against elements of the Republican government which were democraticaly elected. However,The Condor legion was also fighting extreme leftist elements who were implementing very undemocratic, totalitarian policies. These elements were also fighting on the Republican side. The Republican side, in its totality, was not the democraticaly elected government.
The policies and actions of these extremist militias, both left wing and right wing would not pass any reasonable test for democracy.
I also apologize for posting misinformation regarding La Pasionera
Sincerely,
John
That you can tell the dead at Guernica. A clean war...? There is no such thing as the recent events in Iraq should clearly have proven. The Condor legion was a bunch a fascist fighting against a democraticly elected government!
Regards --- Lars EP[/quote]
Dear Lars,
I said that the Condor Legion fought a "relatively clean war".
You are correct.....there are no clean wars. This of course holds true for both the Republican and Nationalist sides of the conflict.
The Condor Legion was fighting against elements of the Republican government which were democraticaly elected. However,The Condor legion was also fighting extreme leftist elements who were implementing very undemocratic, totalitarian policies. These elements were also fighting on the Republican side. The Republican side, in its totality, was not the democraticaly elected government.
The policies and actions of these extremist militias, both left wing and right wing would not pass any reasonable test for democracy.
I also apologize for posting misinformation regarding La Pasionera
Sincerely,
John
Well it seems that you have a good idea of what the SCW was ,Deterrance,if a war can´t be clean just consider a CIVIL WAR where you can be shooting at your brother (This is not an exaggeration it did really happen)
Anyway La Legión Condor fought a dirty war as the worst of the other factions did...
They not only bombed Gernika but also Durango and other PURELY CIVILIAN objectives...I have read (Don´t know where right now) that they tested terrorist bombing techniques as ordered by Reichsmarshall Göring.Maybe it´s not true but they acted many times on their own iniciative and sometimes in a clear opposition to direct Nationalist Command orders (Guernika)
Anyway La Legión Condor fought a dirty war as the worst of the other factions did...
They not only bombed Gernika but also Durango and other PURELY CIVILIAN objectives...I have read (Don´t know where right now) that they tested terrorist bombing techniques as ordered by Reichsmarshall Göring.Maybe it´s not true but they acted many times on their own iniciative and sometimes in a clear opposition to direct Nationalist Command orders (Guernika)
Anyway La Legión Condor fought a dirty war as the worst of the other factions did...
Javichu,
I have been interested in the SCW for a long time. It is terrible how two factions of one country could come to conclusion that the opposing side had to be completely destroyed. Both sides not only made war on opposing soldiers and civilians.....but also on the culture of their country ( ex. destruction of Churches by anarchists). Yet others sacrificed all for a cause they beleived in.
Historcialy USA was lucky in civil war. Almost all fighting was uniformed soldier against uniformed soldier. There were similarities to SCW is Kansas and Missouri though.
In regards to Condor Legion, they bombed civilian targets, but over all were their actions directed against mostly military targets? If they were, then perhaps they were not as bad as miitia groups specificaly targeting opposing civilians
I also have a question for you....was Franco ever an actual member of the Phlangist party?
[/quote]
Javichu,
I have been interested in the SCW for a long time. It is terrible how two factions of one country could come to conclusion that the opposing side had to be completely destroyed. Both sides not only made war on opposing soldiers and civilians.....but also on the culture of their country ( ex. destruction of Churches by anarchists). Yet others sacrificed all for a cause they beleived in.
Historcialy USA was lucky in civil war. Almost all fighting was uniformed soldier against uniformed soldier. There were similarities to SCW is Kansas and Missouri though.
In regards to Condor Legion, they bombed civilian targets, but over all were their actions directed against mostly military targets? If they were, then perhaps they were not as bad as miitia groups specificaly targeting opposing civilians
I also have a question for you....was Franco ever an actual member of the Phlangist party?
[/quote]
Well,who plays a fair game and who doesn´t depends on the poit of view...I mean if you´re under the bombers or you´re the pilot 
From my point of view there´s not such thing as a "clean war" if only one innocent dies...You can only speak about a justified war,selfdefence war and such things. :roll:
Regarding to Legion Condor I agree that MOST of their targets were military but when they first bombed a civilian objective they became war criminals (Do you think that Luftwaffe or the 8th AF played a "Clean War"?Most of their objectives were also military but you should ask London,Hamburg,Dresde or Coventry victims if these units were or not doing a "Dirty War") Durango suffered a worse bombing than Guernika (800 Dead) with no nearby military objectives to justify the attack...
And ckleisch,it is a nice poster indeed but I,as Spanish citizen can´t see only the drawing but the meaning of it.Anyway this is a Forum about the SCW and about mean people and patriots not about poster Art...
Franco was never a member of the Falange,he used the organisation for their own purposes.The falange had a distinctive Socialist tinct that made her uncomfortable for a Rightist Dictator like Franco...When Jose Antonio was executed in Alicante he could take absolute control and unified the Falange with the Requeté (FE Tradicionalista y de las JONS) added two paragraphs to the 25 points -the Fundational Act of Falange- stating the absolute obedience of the Organisation to the "Jefe del Estado" (Himself) .
Prosecuted,imprisoned,executed or exiled the more "Purist" Falangistas that opposed to their proceedings.And corrupted the idea of Falange in a way that JA Primo de Rivera never would have allowed...
Of the European Fascism I think that Falange was the "less bad".(Can I say that? My English is really crappy...
From my point of view there´s not such thing as a "clean war" if only one innocent dies...You can only speak about a justified war,selfdefence war and such things. :roll:
Regarding to Legion Condor I agree that MOST of their targets were military but when they first bombed a civilian objective they became war criminals (Do you think that Luftwaffe or the 8th AF played a "Clean War"?Most of their objectives were also military but you should ask London,Hamburg,Dresde or Coventry victims if these units were or not doing a "Dirty War") Durango suffered a worse bombing than Guernika (800 Dead) with no nearby military objectives to justify the attack...
And ckleisch,it is a nice poster indeed but I,as Spanish citizen can´t see only the drawing but the meaning of it.Anyway this is a Forum about the SCW and about mean people and patriots not about poster Art...
Franco was never a member of the Falange,he used the organisation for their own purposes.The falange had a distinctive Socialist tinct that made her uncomfortable for a Rightist Dictator like Franco...When Jose Antonio was executed in Alicante he could take absolute control and unified the Falange with the Requeté (FE Tradicionalista y de las JONS) added two paragraphs to the 25 points -the Fundational Act of Falange- stating the absolute obedience of the Organisation to the "Jefe del Estado" (Himself) .
Prosecuted,imprisoned,executed or exiled the more "Purist" Falangistas that opposed to their proceedings.And corrupted the idea of Falange in a way that JA Primo de Rivera never would have allowed...
Of the European Fascism I think that Falange was the "less bad".(Can I say that? My English is really crappy...
Javichu,
It is interesting to see that Franco was never a member of the Falange. I dont feel that USAF oor Luftwaffe fought a clean war. A clean war has never existed.
But war crimes must be a graduated scale. i.e. terror bombings fall below Holocaust, Khmer Rouge etc.
I agree that compared to other European extremist movements (NAZI, Stalin) Franco's dictatorship was the less worse.
It is interesting to see that Franco was never a member of the Falange. I dont feel that USAF oor Luftwaffe fought a clean war. A clean war has never existed.
But war crimes must be a graduated scale. i.e. terror bombings fall below Holocaust, Khmer Rouge etc.
I agree that compared to other European extremist movements (NAZI, Stalin) Franco's dictatorship was the less worse.
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Kurt_Steiner
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- Location: Barcelona, Catalunya
Legion Condor
Oh heavens, so the Condor Legion was fighting to restore democracy?The Condor Legion was fighting against elements of the Republican government which were democraticaly elected. However,The Condor legion was also fighting extreme leftist elements who were implementing very undemocratic, totalitarian policies. These elements were also fighting on the Republican side. The Republican side, in its totality, was not the democraticaly elected government.
Please, anyone remembers how Hitler came to power? Wipping out enemies, banning all the political parties but the NSDAP...
There is no clear war, of course, but the Condor Legion was testing the weapons and the tactics which, later on, they would use in the blitzkrieg. Oddily enough, the United Kingdom and France (very democratic powers) didn't move a finger to avoid the Nazi intervention. So, by not avoiding Gernika, they got Coventry.
The misterious jokes that plays history on us...
Depending on the point of view, of course. Depending if you're living in Spain under his boot, or safely in England or in France, for instance, in the 1950s, in the 1960s, in the 1970s... Depending on the fact if you came from a Republican background or from a Nationalist background... Depending on... so many things...agree that compared to other European extremist movements (NAZI, Stalin) Franco's dictatorship was the less worse
Perhaps am I a bit out of topic? Sorry...
Best regards