The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
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von thoma
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby von thoma » 21 Jul 2012 04:58

Other for 3.J/88 Oblt. Hans Schmoller-Haldy ( At right ) Me Bf-109 E-3 6•123.
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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 21 Jul 2012 12:52

Hello to all :D; thanks for sharing it here von thoma :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 04 Aug 2012 14:45

Hello to all :D; something more about emblems....................

Another white top hat!..............

Source: Der Adler 1939 – Heft 08.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 28 Mar 2013 14:34

Hello to all :D; after a while a couple of pictures ................

The J. / 88 in Spain.

Bf-109B of the 2. Staffel in Spain in 1938 .............

Source: Deut.Jagdflugzeug,Me 109B,Legion Condor,Kennung,Tarn,Feldflugplatz,Spanien,1938. eBay auction.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 11 Aug 2013 16:17

Hello to all :D; after some time a couple of pictures ................

The J. / 88 in Spain.

Bf-109E aircrafts from 2. Staffel in Spain in.............

Source: http://www.ebay.de/sch/Fotos-Briefe-Postkarten-/157544/i.html?_pgn=2&_skc=48&rt=nc

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 13 Aug 2013 21:05

Hello to all :D; something more................

The J. / 88 in Spain.

Bf-109E aircrafts from 1. Staffel in Spain in.............

Source: http://www.ebay.de/sch/Fotos-Briefe-Pos ... c=48&rt=nc

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby KarlVonVitry » 16 Feb 2014 20:22

Bf-109E 6 128 Condor Legion
Sanjurjo airfield Zaragoza
Fall of 1938
Does anyone know the name of the pilot ?
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Last edited by KarlVonVitry on 17 Feb 2014 10:17, edited 4 times in total.
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Marcus Wendel
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Marcus Wendel » 16 Feb 2014 20:50

:welcome:

That image does not show up, perhaps you could attach it to your post.

Also, please don't write in bold text, thanks. It should only be used to highlight small parts of a text.

/Marcus

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby KarlVonVitry » 17 Feb 2014 01:46

von thoma wrote:Other for 3.J/88 Oblt. Hans Schmoller-Haldy Me Bf-109 E-3 6•123.



https://www.facebook.com/CarlosVidrialesGarcia/media_set?set=a.10151734047441990.1073741830.532416989&type=3
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby KarlVonVitry » 18 Feb 2014 15:38

Bf109E 6 128 unknow pilot
at Sanjurjo airfield Zaragoza
1938

Does anyone know the pilot's name ?


In the background
Bf109E 6 123 Condor Legion pilot Oberleutnant Hans Schmoller-Haldy
at Sanjurjo airfield Zaragoza
1938

own source
https://www.facebook.com/CarlosVidrialesGarcia/media_set?set=a.10151734047441990.1073741830.532416989&type=3
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Ironmachine
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 17 Mar 2014 08:39

Another top hat in black, this time in a H-51:
He-51.JPG

Source: www.ejercitodelaire.mde.es
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 06 May 2014 10:43

Couple of questions:

How big were the confirmed losses of J/88?

I have Patrick Laureau´s book on Legion Condor and so far it is the only source where I have found numerical information about the losses of Legion Condor. According to Laureau:

The Bf 109 losses were 40 - half of them in accidents and crash landings, half in combat. I think that Bf 109´s relatively bigger accident rate showed that the type had still serious technical problems when it was pressed to service.

In this forum I have seen someone claiming that Bf 109 combat losses in Spain were as low as 6. At the same time Spanish Republican pilots claimed to have shot down nearly 50 Bf 109´s (this data coming from Rafael A Permuy Lopez´s book on Spanish Republican aces). What is the correct figure of Bf 109 losses - 6, 20 or 50?

The He 51 losses were 79, more in combat than in accidents It seems to me that He 51 had more combat losses than any other aircraft of Legion Condor? Not so surprising due to their ground attack role which exposed them repeatedly to flak.

When looking the statistics of claims compared to loss statistics of both sides, I would say that both sides (Legion Condor and Republican pilots) overclaimed, which was very normal taking in account the nature of air combats (and probably the propaganda factor).

Couple of Republican claims are controversial, although interesting:

Frank Tinker´s claim to be the very first pilot to shoot down a Bf 109 (Guido Höness) on 13.7.1937 (the date of claim does not match with Legion Condor records).

José Falcos double claim vs. Bf 109 on 6.2.1939. It is confirmed, that he indeed shot down Bf 109 of Friedrich Windemuth (who was the last combat casualty of Legion Condor). However his claim of Bf 109 of Hans Nirminger is not 100 % confirmed. According to Legion Condor records Hans Nirminger died in flying accident in May 1939 at León.

The last but not least question about the camouflage of Bf 109 in Spain. My books show colourplates only in dark green, but I have seen some kit model boxart showing white/green. I´m a kit modeller - so I ask how should I paint Bf 109 B of Legion Condor if I get one? Are box instructions to be trusted or should I use my books as reference?

Thanks in advance, if You take time to answer some of my questions.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 08 May 2014 07:51

Umm, let's see. I don't have any source with me at this time, but IIRC there were about 131 Bf 109 that served in Spain. Of those, 45 were E models that arrived in December 1938 and did not see much air combat as the republican aviation was not in good shape by that time. Of the other 86, as many as 34 survived the war. With these numbers, and considering the possible number of accidents, I think that the "nearly 50 shot down Bf 109s" claimed by Republican pilots is clearly an impossible high number. Which, of course, is the usual thing with (air) combat claims.

Regarding the color of the Bf 109s, I think what follows will clarify the matter:
A further good example of this is provided by the grey upper surface colour used on Condor Legion fighters, examples of which are given to the right. 20 years ago, every colour reproduction of Bf109s in Spain showed them bearing a light neutral grey scheme, often called "gull grey". However, recent research, based on contemporary German records and surviving aircraft parts, seems to point to the grey being a much darker, greener hue. In fact many of the fighter aircraft sent to Spain may have been finished in a colour much closer to, if not actually, the famous RLM Grau 02.
Much of this research was incorporated into the recent Jagdwaffe title by Mombeek, Smith & Creek (1999), which caused many reviewers to remark unfavourably on the dark colours they had given to their aircraft. Merrick (2005) expands on this research considerably, suggesting that the earliest Bf 109s were finished in bare metal with a yellowish-greenish-grey protective varnish applied, and that all Bf 109s were repainted in RLM 72 or 73 on the uppersides at some later point.
The pictures to the right show scans of profiles of the same aircraft from (Top to bottom) Flying colours (1981), A mid-1990's decal sheet and Mombeek et al. (1999).
Of course, trying to reproduce colours on a web page to be viewed on a computer screen adds yet another layer of complexity to the whole question. So I would like to proudly claim that all the colours on my web site are completely and utterly inaccurate!
The difficulties of estimating colours from monochrome photographs are discussed further by Ian Huntley (1994).

Source: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/Spain/codes.html

Regards.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 14 May 2014 11:42

Thanks for the info.

When it comes to Bf 109 combat losses of Legion Condor, I guess that we can use Patrick Laureau´s book "Condor: the Luftwaffe in Spain, 1936 - 1939" (my review is at the section of recommended reading). While the editing work of his book has not been the best possible, Laureau has made lots of research work in this field. When it comes to combat losses, he mentions the date and location as well as the pilot of the downed planed in most cases (some cases are rather mysterious due to very scarce data). According to Laureau a total of 20 Bf 109´s were lost in combat (including two destroyed on the ground by the enemy bombing).

His Bf 109 combat loss list:

13.7.1937 Brunete: "6-4" (Höness) shot down by I-16 (Tinker?)
17.7.1937 Escalona: plane ID? (Handrick) shot down by I-16 (Tinker)
18.7.1937 near Escalona(?): "6-14" (Haarbach) shot down by I-16
5.11.1937 Teruel: plane ID? (Sigmund) shot down by I-16 over
30.11.1937 Teruel: "6-15" (Polenz) shot down most probably by I-16
23.12.1937 Teruel: plane ID? (Kurz) shot down by enemy fighter or flak (?)
7.2.1938 Teruel: plane ID? (Balthasar) shot down by SB-2 over
11.3.1938 Teruel: plane ID? (Graf zu Dohna) shot down by I-16 (Bonsch)
20.4.1938 Sagunto: plane and pilot ID? shot down by I-16
11.5.1938 Sra Espadán: plane and pilot ID? shot down by I-16
14.6.1938 Mijares: plane ID? (Lenz) shot down by I-16
14.6.1938 Villafames: "6-33" (Priebe) shot down by I-15 (?)
14.7.1938 Teruel: one Bf 109 destroyed by mid-air collision with I-15? (Redondo)
3.8.1938 Flix: plane ID? (Lehrmann) shot down by enemy flak
5.9.1938 plane ID? (Lutz) shot down by enemy plane or flak? location?
4.10.1938 Venta de C: "6-67" (Betram) shot down by I-16 (Cortizo)
13.12.1938 plane and pilot ID? location?
16.12.1938 La Cenia: two Bf 109´s at La Cenia were bombed on the ground by SB-2´s.
29.1.1939 Mollet: plane ID? (Bötticher) shot down by enemy flak over Mollet
6.2.1939 Vilajuiga: plane ID? (Nirminger) shot down by I-15 (Falco)
6.2.1939 Vilajuiga: "6-98" (Windemuth) shot down by I-15 (Falco)

If we exclude the most mysterious cases (20.4.1938, 11.5.1938, 14.7.1938, 13.12.1938) out of the list, the Bf 109 combat losses in Spain were at least 16. But this implies only to J./88! I do not know if during the war some 109´s were handed over to Spanish units and if Spaniard pilots flew combat missions with Bf 109. I don´t know if Spanish Nationalist pilots had air victories with Bf 109 or were shot down with it during the Civil War. I know that there were Spanish volunteer pilots who flew later 109´s in the WW2 (escuadrilla azul at Russia), but that is an other story.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 14 May 2014 13:36

durb wrote:I do not know if during the war some 109´s were handed over to Spanish units and if Spaniard pilots flew combat missions with Bf 109. I don´t know if Spanish Nationalist pilots had air victories with Bf 109 or were shot down with it during the Civil War.

Yes, a few Bf-109 B were flown by Spanish pilots as part of Group 5G5 (a mixed unit that also incluyed the He-112s bought by Spain), but that was already in 1939 (since February, IIRC). I don't remember any "Spanish" Bf-109 being shot down (which is plausible, considering the state of the republican fighter force at the time).


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