The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 12 Jan 2015 12:37

Thanks pal :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 17 Jan 2015 14:08

Hello to all :D; something more......................................

The He-112 in Spain.

The V 4 (since November 1936 in Spain / July 19, 1937 total damage) and the V 9 (April 1938) were testing models and were deployed in Tablada with VJ / 88 (experimental fighter squadron). Hauptmann Harro Harder flew in V 9.

As for the He 112 B-0, in November 1938, 17 units of this serie were delivered to Spain. These were assigned to a Spanish squadron, whose commander was García Pardo.

Sources: http://reibert.info/threads/legion-kond ... 929/page-3
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... or&start=0

TIA. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 17 Jan 2015 19:11

tigre wrote:As for the He 112 B-0, in November 1938, 17 units of this serie were delivered to Spain. These were assigned to a Spanish squadron, whose commander was García Pardo

The latest research indicates that they were 19 (not 17) the units of the He 112 B-0 that were delivered to Spain and only the first two arrived in November 1938. The rest arrived later (four of them even arrived after the end of the SCW).
During the SCW they were assigned to the Grupo 5-G-5.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 17 Jan 2015 19:18

Thanks for that info, got it :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 17 Jan 2015 19:46

There seems to be some disagreement of the Heinkel 112 "5-54" of Miguel García Pardo. It is a plane of some interest for modellers because it was the only He 112 plane to see succesfull air combat activity during Spanish Civil War. Looking the posts above and some other websources it was the submodel B-0, but there are some websources claiming that it was B-1. I wonder what it really was?

Also the colourplates seem to give different views. In some we see the white yoke and arrows at the black disc of the fuselage, in others they are red.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 17 Jan 2015 21:39

AFAIK there is no original document stating the submodel of the Spanish He-112s. There seems to exist some indirect evidence that they were B-1s, but it is far from clear.
Regarding the color of the yoke and arrows, they were originally painted in white. Beginning in mid-1940, the planes were repainted and the yoke and arrows changed to red.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 04 Feb 2015 17:02

Has anyone confirmation for these losses of J./88 and some detailed info on them?

Unteroffizier März - 3.J/88 (?), shot down in November 1938 (?) and ending up to be a POW.

On 29.12.1938 one Bf 109 lost in combat.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 02 Apr 2015 04:55

Hello to all :D; something more......................................

The Bf-109B-1 Coded 6-15.

On Dec 04, 1937 while flying an escort mission against the airfield of Bujaraloz, FW Otto Polenz with the Bf-109B-1 6-15 was shot down and after an emergency landing on enemy territory was captured; his plane fell almost undamaged into the hands of the Republicans.

Sources: Les Chasseurs de la Legion Condor.
Warpaint Series – Special Nº 2. Messerschmitt Bf-109.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 20 Apr 2015 12:21

The history of "6-15" is rather interesting. From another thread (Bf 109 B/C/D vs. Polikarpov type 5/10) some comments of test flight evaluations in Soviet Union (where "6-15" was sent by Republicans):

- the max. speed achieved was about 420 - 425 km/h (a brand new Bf 109 A/B probably could make up to 450 km/h)
- "extremely stable, safe and easy to handle" - means a good gun platform and easier to fly than I-16
- despite the undercarriage construction take-offs and landings were not so difficult to master (when compared with I-16, I guess)

Of the later history of this plane I remember to have read that Germans found the plane as abandoned during the summer/autumn of 1941 at some Soviet airfield. Interesting end twist of the history of this particular plane.

About the plane ending up to Republican side I have read that the forced landing was related to some engine trouble. Could it have been caused by some hit on its engine during air combat and thus some Republican pilot/unit credited with air victory for forcing "6-15" to land behind Republican lines? Or just a bad luck of Polenz with mechanic failure? Whatever, capturing almost intact Bf 109 with its pilot was much bigger gain for Republicans to have the plane credited just as destroyed to the tally of some Republican pilot.

The propeller of the plane does not seem to be a variable VDM, but more like a fixed Schwarz (the nose of prop does not seem to have VDM charasteristics like the "open hole" at the nose). In one Osprey book (Aces of Legion Condor) I have seen a colourplate of this plane with a variable VDM prop, but that does not match with the available photo info.

This could be a interesting and less usual subject for modellers - I think that Heller´s old Bf 109 B (1:72) kit could well be painted with aluminium and with Republican stripes to show the plane after it was captured. There are couple of other kits available of Bf 109 A/B, but the Heller kit is quite easy build and still competitive when compared with newer short-run kits.

When it comes to Otto Polenz, I do not know of his later whereabouts. If I remember correctly, he was later freed by the exchange of prisoners and returned to Germany.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 20 Apr 2015 13:25

Well, for what's worth I have read (can't remember where, maybe in Les Messerschmitt Espagnols, by Juan Arraez), that the 6-15 had to make a forced landing after running out of fuel while escorting some He-51s...

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 03 May 2015 00:26

Hello to all :D; thanks for that complement pals :wink:. Something more......................................

The Bf-109V?? Coded 6-2 with the emblem of a skull and crossbones.

Bf 109 V

The pattern V 3 to V 6 came to Spain as experimental aircrafts in the years 1936/37. Used in the VJ / 88 (Seville-Tablada) for testing in the front-line. Then incorporated in the J / 88. According to the book The Condor Legion of Ries&Ring, the Bf-109B were coded from 6o7 to 6o45 so this 6-2 was one of the experimental aircrafts?

Sources: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... or&start=0
http://reibert.info/threads/legion-kond ... dor.30929/

TIA. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 03 May 2015 08:29

That 6-2 is the V3, though it should be noted that after the loss of the V4 the V3 was recoded 6-1, and the V6 (which originally was 6-3) was renumbered 6-2.

According to the book The Condor Legion of Ries&Ring, the Bf-109B were coded from 6o7 to 6o45

One should be very cautious with that, because in the publications dealing with the Bf 109 in Spain there is little agreement on numbers of each model sent to Spain. However, based on the existing evidence, it seems reasonable to think that from 6-3 (not the V6, but a second aircraft so coded)through 6-18 they were Bf 109As.

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 03 May 2015 11:36

Hello Ironmachine :D; thanks for that data :wink:. About the Bf-109A, I thought that no one ever reached Spain. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 03 May 2015 14:33

About the Bf-109A, I thought that no one ever reached Spain.

There is controversy about that, but the current opinion seems to be that they were used in the SCW. There is a thread about that: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=215221

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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 19 Sep 2015 23:45

Hello durb and all :D; a little complement.....................

Bf-109B-1 Coded 6o10.

I would be interested to know more about the plane of Gunther Lutzow. Here is the info I have about his plane on the spring 1937 when he scored the first air victory of Bf 109:

- Bf 109 B-1, Legion Condor number probably 6 - 10.


Source: 61400_b Two photo albums of the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) - Condor Legion. Hermann Historica.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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