The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
durb
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 21 Sep 2015 13:12

More photos of this particular plane which probably was Bf 109 A plane (with fixed Schwarz prop when Lützow flew it back in 1937): http://www.network54.com/Search/view/39 ... age=103643

There has been debate about Bf 109 A/B of Legion Condor - the more recent research seems to claim that there were first V-types up to "6-3" (?) and after that came the A-types from "6-3/6-4" up to "6-18" . The A-series planes were not uniformly standardized (?) but it appears that they were more or less individually modified (there are remarks about "A-0" series but no one seems to write anything about "A-1" or "A-2" - probably these did not exist).

When it comes to B series, I have read comments that "B-1" and "B-2" are artificial creations created by historians - thus "B-1" actually is referring to "A" planes of Legion Condor and "B-2" being the "standard B" with Hamilton propeller.

The whole matter of A- and B-series is still confusing despite all the research made upon the matter. I´m not sure what is the very last and the most convincing word of it. Back in 2007 and in different books published up to 2005 it looked like this: http://bioold.science.ku.dk/drnash/mode ... bf109.html - but some years have passed and I wonder what would be the up-to-date situation of the research made on early Bf 109 types right now in 2015! More than one book has been published about the matter but I do not know which is the best one and most recommended. My own books on Legion Condor + Bf 109 (A)/B/C/D are based on what was known by late 1990´s/early 2000 - thus probably outdated when it comes to A/B question.

Back to "6-10" plane, it survived the SCW and was still in service in 1945. The plane had at some point as many as 15 victory marks painted at the tail - I think that this means the total of air victories scored with the plane when flown by various pilots. I guess that "6-10" was not the only plane of Legion Condor (or in SCW) which had such victory markings.

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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 02 Oct 2015 16:42

Hello to all :D; thanks for your detailed explanation durb :wink:
The plane had at some point as many as 15 victory marks painted at the tail - I think that this means the total of air victories scored with the plane when flown by various pilots.
agree. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 03 Oct 2015 18:51

Hello to all :D; a little more.....................

Legion Condor.


Source: 61400_b Two photo albums of the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) - Condor Legion. Hermann Historica.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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SPEKTRE76
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby SPEKTRE76 » 22 Oct 2015 22:33

Hello fellow Experten,

We need your help at the Battle of Stalingrad forums. Here is the original message below:



The Deutsches Museum in Munich needs your help. The Museum owns the oldest surviving Bf 109; factory number 790. It was built in the Erla Werke in 1939.
The Museum wants to restore the machine to the condition seen on the photograph attached.

Problem is, they don't have the original photo, just this scan. Since this photo comes from an article in a very old Magazine (Avión. revista de divulgacion aeronautica y astronautica, 5/1975)

they could not find the original photograph. But having it is vital for the restoration process, because there are some blurry details on the scan that cannot be identified:

1. There is a strange nose art above the exhaust pipes

2. White writing can barely be seen on the scan just under the canopy.

So question is, does anyone recognize these details or is in the possession of the original photograph or another photograph of the Bf 109 E-3, "6-106"?

I am in contact with the owner of this site, so all the Information there is known:

http://www.messersch...gsliste&type=lc

But if you could provide any further data about this particular aircraft while serving in the Condor Legion or the spanish air force (that is documents or reliable sources) the Museum would be very thankful!



The info that factory number 790 is 6-106 is not secure. It originates from an article in the RAF Flying Review form 1960, but there were a few mistakes in the article. The author is long gone and the Spanish air force archives told the Museum that there is no other Information.

A study of the paint layers on the fuselage might give some answers, but only the fuselage without engine and cowling is from factory number 790, all other parts are from other Emils. However, the Museum does not expect to find any layers of paint under the newest "Luftwaffe" schemes.


Thank you for any help, I'm sure it will be very much appreciated!



I have done my own analysis and I think the personal insignia is that of a Cigar. This plane belongs to 3.J/88 and is coded 6-106. I assume this is the very plane the museum has. Please view my files below. Please click on them to view a larger image. Thank you for your efforts! :D



Adjusted photo 1
Image

Adjusted and traced photo 2
Image

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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 06 Apr 2016 23:46

Hello to all :D; talking about the fighters ................

Heinkel 112 of the J. / 88 in Spain.

The He-112 played the role of ground attack aircraft, earning the nickname of can opener by destroying three tanks and one armored train. However the He-112 is subject to controversy since according to different sources, the 5-1 would be the V3, V4 or V6.

Source: http://www.ebay.ch/itm/111892250116
http://www.ebay.es/itm/351641686921

Cheers. Raul M 8-).
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Ironmachine
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 07 Apr 2016 07:14

This same picture was posted by carius on 16 February 2016 in the "Photos of Axis airplanes in Spain" thread (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=184432&start=105), and I will post again what I wrote there:
There has been a long-standing controversy about the real identity of 5-1, whether it was V3, V4, V5 or V6. However,
researcher José Luis González Serrano published in issue 27 of the Aeroplano journal the real identity of the plane, found in a Condor Legion's technical report, Technischer Erfahrungsbericht an Fluggerät VK/88 in der Zeit vom 1.12.36 bis 15.1.37, dated 15 January 1937: it was really V3 (WerkNummer 1292, D-IDMO)

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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 07 Apr 2016 21:18

OK thanks, got it :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

durb
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 20 Apr 2016 20:45

It is actually an interesting question when the first Bf 109 "Emils" arrived to Spain and became operative at the Spanish sky. Robert Forsyth has in his book "Aces of Legion Condor" a photo of Bf 109 E-1 "6-91" at the airfield of La Senia and it is dated to "early autumn 1938". However I´m a bit sceptical on that.

Based on some other literary sources I think that the first Emils arrived clearly later than in "early autumn 1938" and the conversion from Jumo-models to Emil started in J/88 later than on Sept./Oct. 1938. Anyway "Emils" played fairly limited role in the conflict because they arrived to Spain so late in the conflict despite quite many photos and colourplates published on them.

According to what I have read about the manufacturing of "Emils" is that the first Bf 109 E-1´s (Wnr. 1778-1804) came out of the production lines of Messerschmitt AG as late as in October/November 1938. So the conversion to Emil in J./ 88 must have started at some later date. Has anyone some reliable data about the arrival of first "Emils" to Spain?

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Ironmachine
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 21 Apr 2016 07:24

I don't have the ultimate answer to your question, but I think the "early autumn 1938" date is clearly not correct. AFAIK the first machines arrived near the end of 1938 (maybe in November?).

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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 05 Aug 2016 01:45

Hello to all :D; a little more.....................

Legion Condor.

Source: http://www.ebay.at/itm/BUYMUC-Foto-Legi ... 58dd4d8c79.

One Bf-109 B/C or D? Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 03 Nov 2016 03:54

Hello to all :D; after a while a couple of pictures ................

The J. / 88 in Spain.

Source: http://www.ebay.de/itm/selt-Archiv-Foto ... 2274312719
http://www.ebay.de/itm/selt-Archiv-Foto ... 1627988458.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Ironmachine
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 03 Nov 2016 13:14

"Mors - Mors" was 6-107, a Bf109E-3 from 2./JGr.88.

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tigre
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Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 03 Nov 2016 20:49

Thanks for that tip :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).


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