The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
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tigre
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The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby tigre » 22 Sep 2012 21:00

Hello to all :D; just a little inquiry..............

On May 29, 1937 two bombers Tupolev SB-2, flown by Soviet crews, attacked the German battleship "Deutschland" by mistake. Twelve bombs were dropped with two of them hitting the ship. One went through the foredeck into the seaman's mess and the other hit the ships side causing little damage. The bomb which exploded in the seaman's mess caused a fire with 23 crew members being killed, 19 seriously injured and 64 slightly wounded. The final death toll amounted to 31 German sailors.

Were those sailors the first casualties of the Kriegsmarine in the Tercer Reich era? and the only in the Spanish Civil War?

Sources: Fotoalbum 175 Bilder U-Boot U33 U40 TOP !!! bei eBay_de 1918-1945 (endet 09_05_09 162928 MESZ).
http://www.ibiza-hotels.com/history/

TIA. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Ironmachine
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Ironmachine » 23 Sep 2012 07:28

and the only in the Spanish Civil War?

No, there were more Kriegsmarine casualties in the SCW. The naval contingent of the Condor Legion suffered five deaths, of which four were in plane or car crashes (Korvettenkapitän Richard Mayrhöfer, Fregattenkapitän Manfred Fuhrke, Waffenmann Walter Vülcher and Funker Herbert Schaaf) and one died when the cruiser Baleares was sunk (Monteur Jürgen Jensen).
There were also casualties among the crews of the Kriegsmarine ships operating in Spanish waters, but I don't have a full list. Picture captions from the book La Kriegsmarine en la Guerra Civil Española by Raúl Arias Ramos mention two (Obermatrose Deege, from the Scheer, who died on 6 October 1936, and Matrose Egen, also from the Scheer).
Regards.

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Tim Smith
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Tim Smith » 23 Sep 2012 10:45

tigre wrote:...the German battleship "Deutschland"...


'Pocket battleship' not 'battleship'. (she was called such by the British, not by the Germans.)

The Panzerschiff 'armoured ships' were basically a 1930's version of the turn of the century armoured cruiser.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_cruiser

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tigre
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby tigre » 23 Sep 2012 13:22

Hello to all :D; Ironmachine thanks for your clear answer and Tim Smith thanks for shedding light about the Pocket Battleship :wink:. All the best. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Spearfish » 24 Sep 2012 16:23

The Deutschland was bombed by I.I.Proskurov who later led 7th Army aviation during the Winter War. In 1940 he headed the GRU (Soviet Military Intelligence) then Long Range Aviation before being arrested in April 1941 and executed with many other generals in October 1941.
Incidentally, some of the Royal Navy personnel who helped look after casualties in the Deutschland later participated in the Battle of the River Plate in which he sister ship Admiral Graf Spee (a frequent visitor to Gibraltar) was scuttled
On a personal note my father was the Coxswain in the British submarine HMS Spearfish when she torpedoed and severely damaged the Deuttschland (by then renamed Lutzow) in April 1940, hence my name.

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tigre
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby tigre » 25 Sep 2012 00:40

Hello to all :D; Spearfish, thanks for joining here and for sharing these interesting data with us :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Ironmachine
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Ironmachine » 25 Sep 2012 08:01

Spearfish wrote:The Deutschland was bombed by I.I.Proskurov who later led 7th Army aviation during the Winter War.

And still Leocadio Mendiola claimed till his death that he was the one who bombed the Deutschland. He even claimed that she had to be towed to Germany due to the damage she had! (By the way, the initial republican reports considered that the bombed ship was the Admiral Scheer).
Regards.

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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Nickuru » 05 Oct 2012 05:54

The real question here which everyone avoids is: what was the Deutschland doing in Spanish waters in the first place? By agreement members of the League of Nations were to assist a country under attack. The Spanish Republic was a legally elected government under attack by fanatics. Franco and his traitors, all of whom had sworn alligence to the Spanish Republic. Now Hitler had decided to support Franco in violation of the treaties of the League of Nations. This is discussed in The Spanish Civil War by Hugh Thomas.

Not only Nazi Germany but also Britain under Stanley Baldwin, a admirer of Adolf Hitler, sent warships to prevent the loyal Spanish Navy fleet from blocking the transfer of troops from Morroco to Spain in 1936. These included the battleship Queen Elizabeth. Furthemore perfidous Albion threatened France with a break in relations if they allowed the weapons Spain had purchased to be sent across the border to Spain, even though they were paid for. ibid and also The Spanish Republic and the Civil War by Gabriel Jackson.

Germany pretended that they were not involved; the USA ditto, while Texas Oil was sending tankers of oil to Franco traitors, who used the fuel to take towns and villages and then shoot the inhabitants. Perhaps Hitler learned from Franco?
The Spanish Civil War ended in April 1939, 4 months later; can anyone guess what happened?

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Ironmachine
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Ironmachine » 05 Oct 2012 17:50

Not only Nazi Germany but also Britain under Stanley Baldwin, a admirer of Adolf Hitler, sent warships to prevent the loyal Spanish Navy fleet from blocking the transfer of troops from Morroco to Spain in 1936.

No foreign warship prevented the "loyal Spanish Navy fleet" from blocking the transfer of trops from Spanish Morocco to the Peninsula in 1936. That's why the "loyal Spanish Navy fleet" actually blocked that transfer, which had to be done mainly by air, until the Republican government decided that the fleet had better things to do than blocking the Strait.

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Polar bear
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Polar bear » 11 Oct 2012 07:48

hi, Tim,

Tim Smith wrote:The Panzerschiff 'armoured ships' were basically a 1930's version of the turn of the century armoured cruiser.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_cruiser


I disagree and think that wiki is wrong in this case (as in amny others)

The Panzerschiff was a new design "in itself" , with a different mode of operation in mind compared to a AC.

greetings, the pb
Peace hath her victories no less renowned than War
(John Milton, the poet, in a letter to the Lord General Cromwell, May 1652)

Nickuru
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Nickuru » 16 Oct 2012 06:42

Ironmachine wrote:
Not only Nazi Germany but also Britain under Stanley Baldwin, a admirer of Adolf Hitler, sent warships to prevent the loyal Spanish Navy fleet from blocking the transfer of troops from Morroco to Spain in 1936.

No foreign warship prevented the "loyal Spanish Navy fleet" from blocking the transfer of trops from Spanish Morocco to the Peninsula in 1936. That's why the "loyal Spanish Navy fleet" actually blocked that transfer, which had to be done mainly by air, until the Republican government decided that the fleet had better things to do than blocking the Strait.


You are entitled to your opinions, I respect them, you may have information I have not. I go by Hugh Thomas, Gabriel Jackson. However the main source of this is El Factor Olvidado, la Armada Británica en la Guerra Civil. The forgotten factor, the British Navy during the Civil War. It is in Spanish, not sure if there is an english translation.

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Ironmachine
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Ironmachine » 16 Oct 2012 07:31

Nickuru wrote:I go by Hugh Thomas, Gabriel Jackson. However the main source of this is El Factor Olvidado, la Armada Británica en la Guerra Civil. The forgotten factor, the British Navy during the Civil War. It is in Spanish, not sure if there is an english translation. However the main source of this is El Factor Olvidado, la Armada Británica en la Guerra Civil. The forgotten factor, the British Navy during the Civil War.

If you have El Factor Olvidado, then you should quote the relevant part, so we all can see what it really says. On the other hand, if you mean that you are taking your ideas from Hugh Thomas and Gabriel Jackson and that they based their writings on the matter on El Factor Olvidado, then I would say that you should take their opinions with a grain of salt.
The fact is that the Army of África went to the Península mainly by air, and when they tried to go by sea they were intercepted by ships of the loyalist fleet. No foreign warship was involved in the matter, AFAIK.
Remember that there is a great difference between opinions and facts. For example, your previous statement:
Nickuru wrote:By agreement members of the League of Nations were to assist a country under attack. The Spanish Republic was a legally elected government under attack by fanatics. Franco and his traitors, all of whom had sworn alligence to the Spanish Republic. Now Hitler had decided to support Franco in violation of the treaties of the League of Nations.

is just an opinion. The fact is that (leaving aside other considerations) members of the League of Nations were to assist a country at war only in the case of war between States, which obviously was not the case of the SCW, so no agreement was broken here.
See the Covenant of the League of Nations here: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/leagcov.asp
Regards.

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Tim Smith
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Tim Smith » 16 Oct 2012 18:49

Polar bear wrote:hi, Tim,

Tim Smith wrote:The Panzerschiff 'armoured ships' were basically a 1930's version of the turn of the century armoured cruiser.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_cruiser


I disagree and think that wiki is wrong in this case (as in amny others)

The Panzerschiff was a new design "in itself" , with a different mode of operation in mind compared to a AC.

greetings, the pb


Hi Polar Bear (cub?) :P

This is from the wiki page:

The armored cruiser was a type of warship of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, designed like other types of cruisers to operate as a long-range, independent warship, capable of defeating any ship apart from a battleship, and fast enough to outrun any battleships it encountered.


Sorry, but the sections in bold sound exactly like the Panzerschiff's mission to me. So I think wiki is on the money for once.

Granted, the British innovation of the battlecruiser had made the armoured cruiser obselete by WW1 - but in the late 1920's, Germany wasn't seriously considering Britain as a future enemy, but rather France and Russia, Germany's traditional enemies. And, unlike Britain, France and Russia didn't have any battlecruisers (or fast battleships) of their own, which made the old armoured cruiser concept still viable against them at that time. France had to build Dunkerque and Strasbourg to counter the Panzerschiff, her old WW1 battleships were too slow to catch them and her 8" cruisers heavily outgunned.

Obviously, (Weimar) Germany would no doubt have rather built fast battleships (like Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) instead of the Panzerschiff - but they were limited to 10,000 tons under the Versailles Treaty, and so weren't allowed to build battlecruisers. Hence the old armoured cruiser concept was the biggest, most heavily armed and armoured fighting ship possible within the Treaty limits.

Until Hitler decided to completely ignore the Treaty limits, that is.

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Polar bear
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Polar bear » 17 Oct 2012 06:47

hi, Tim,

OK, you did persuade me :milsmile:

ref: cub ... No, at sixty my pure white fur has turned somewhat towards the grey.

greetings, the pb
Peace hath her victories no less renowned than War
(John Milton, the poet, in a letter to the Lord General Cromwell, May 1652)

Survivalunit1
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Re: The Panzerschiff "Deutschland" - 1937.

Postby Survivalunit1 » 27 Oct 2012 13:56

I was at Ibiza this summer and visited the peninsula 'Botafoc' & its lighthouse (which was partially damaged during the attack on the 'Deutschland'). A few hundred metres from the lighthouse there is another peninsula called Illa Grossa. on the top of the mountain you can find 3 huge concrete pits with passageways to a munition room, apparently there were German coastal batteries present in 1940 to defend the port of Ibiza Town (http://users.telenet.be/WMF-home/WMF_2003_3.PDF). very fun :)


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