AS 88 operations

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Spearfish
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by Spearfish » 03 Oct 2012 06:46

Ironmachine
As Joe Friday used to say in Dragnet 'Give us the facts' and I think you have nailed the Delfin story superbly as well as adding to our knowledge of AS/88.
Fabrizio
Many thanks for your added information and adding to my bibliography on the Spanish Civil War. I will try to get a copy of Pedriali's book.
Regards and respect to you both
Spearfish

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Ironmachine
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by Ironmachine » 03 Oct 2012 11:49

gttf wrote:Btw, which attack on Jaime I are you referring to ?


The "attack" in question is mentioned in many Spanish forums and webpages, but without citing any source and with different dates. See, for example:

A destacar el ataque del 21 de mayo de 1937 en que los He 59 alcanzaron con sus bombas al acorazado "Jaime I" en la rada de Almería dejándolo fuera de servicio.

http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=18627&p=556122&hilit=torpederos#p556122

El 23 de mayo un Heinkel 59 de la escuadrilla A/S 88 logró un impacto de 250 kg en el acorazado Jaime I.

http://mgar.net/var/guerraciv2.htm

Entre octubre y noviembre de 1936 llegan cinco He-58B-2(sic) a las tropas sublevadas. El 25 de mayo de 1937 consiguen su mayor éxito al poner fuera de servicio al acorazado republicano "Jaime I" en el puerto de Almería.

http://www.geocities.ws/sagunto1937_1938/interest.htm

So, as you said, maybe the seaplanes raided the battleship in the same period than the S79s did, or this is just a case of mistaken identity with the Italian planes (though is difficult to understand how the S79s of the Aviación Legionaria may end up being He-59s of the Legión Cóndor). Neither option, however, explains the divergence in dates shown for the supposed attack made by the He-59s.

Regards.

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tigre
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by tigre » 28 Dec 2013 21:58

Hello to all :D; a little complement...............

The He-60E 513 "El Lobo del Mar" (Sea Wolf).

Source: Jet&Prop Nº 2 1991.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

Feliz Año Nuevo - Happy New Year - feliz Ano Novo - gluckliches Neues Jahr - Bonne Année - Felice Anno Nuovo - Szczęśliwego nowego roku!! :thumbsup:
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durb
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by durb » 21 May 2014 13:20

I would be interested to know something about the combat losses of AS 88 and find possible matches with Republican claims.

Here are some claims by the Republican nightfighter units 3/26 and Patrulla de Vuelo Nocturno vs. AS 88:

10.7.1938 Heinkel 59 confirmed
1.8.1938 He 59 unconfirmed
21.8.1938 He 59 unconfirmed
18.11.1938 He 59 confirmed
17.12.1938 He 59 unconfirmed
31.12.1938 He 59 confirmed
17.1.1938 He 59 unconfirmed

Any match with Legion Condor / AS 88 records?

The only verified claim of Republican nighfighter vs. AS 88 is to my knowledge 21.3.1938, when the claim of José Sarrió Calatayud vs. He 59 matches with the combat loss record of AS 88. Republicans claimed also to have shot down few days earlier (March 1938) one He 59 (or twin-engined seaplane of similar construction).

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Ironmachine
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by Ironmachine » 21 May 2014 13:45

The same article that I cited in the first page of this thread includes a list of definitive write-offs suffered by AS/88. Combat losses of He-59 by enemy fighters are given for 21/03/1938, 31/12/38 and 06/03/39. Another loss, probably by a fighter, is given for 18/11/38. And another loss is given for 02/11/38 as shot down, but it is not specified if by fighter or DCA.
So, apart from the 21/03/1938 claim, the 31/12/1938 claim seems to be legit, and also probably the 18/11/1938 claim.
Regards.

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tigre
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by tigre » 12 Jan 2015 22:06

Hello to all :D; a complement to raise some doubts ...............

The Seefliegerstaffel 88 (AS / 88) in the SCW.

Some discrepancies that I have, first source (Jet & Prop) mentioned at the end of October 1936 arrived at Cadiz the first two He-60 (Oblt Karl-Heinz Wolff and Lt. Siegmund Storp) followed soon afterwards by two He-59 (Oblt. Werner Klümper and Oblt. Diether Leicht). The machines had codes 511 and 512 (He-59) and 513 "The Sea Wolf" and 514 "The beast of the sea" (He-60) constituting the core of the AS / 88 in the Legion Condor (constituted November 07, 1936). In December 1936 the squadron moved to El Atalayón in Melilla (Spanish Morocco).

While Patrick Laureau in his work specifies that at the beginning of October 1936 arrived at Cadiz two machines, one twin engines He-59 and one single engine He-60 and in late November two more machines arrived in Cádiz (unspecified type).

Second discrepancy: only Laureau mentions that on October 15 the seaplanes of the the AS / 88 took part in an action of bombing the port of Cartagena and on October 16 Lt. Storp with one He-60 attacked with some success a target near Malaga (naval target at sea, port ?? more data?).

Both sources agree with the total number and type of aircraft and the transfer to North Africa.

Third doubt as Laureau (and other sources too) specifies that the first casualty occurred on January 13, 1937 when the Unteroffizier Harald Kahl crashed his He-59 off Pollensa [Mallorca]. Well he flew on mission from El Atalayón, at night? ... Because there is some distance..What happened with the other crew? Was he flying alone? ...........

Sources: Jet & Prop Nº 2 de 1992.
Condor: The Luftwaffe in Spain, 1936-39. Escrito por Patrick Laureau.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Ironmachine
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by Ironmachine » 13 Jan 2015 19:25

From the sources I have, it seems that first arrived at Cádiz a He-59B-2 and a He-60E, but that was on 18 September. Later, on October (maybe on the 14th) arrived another He-59B-2 and another He-60E, again at Cádiz.

The codes you mention are wrong. The He-60s were coded 512 "La Fiera del Mar" and 513 "El Lobo del Mar". No doubt on that, because there are photographies available.

I have found nothing about the actions in October.

Regarding Harald Kahl, I have found great discrepancies. My sources gave the date of Kahl's accident as 13 January 1938, not 13 January 1937. AS/88 was already based at Pollensa, and it was not a night mission. The crash was caused by heavy fog. Kahl died and the rest of the crew were wounded. Additionally, as the incident happened in 1938 and not in 1937, Kahl was not the first dead member of AS/88: it was Oberleutnant Diether Leicht, who was killed after his He-59 crashed into the sea on 5 February 1937, when the AS/88 (two He-59 and two He-60) was attacked by some I-15 fighters while flying an anti-submarine patrol for the Canarias cruiser.

Hope that helps.
Regards.

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tigre
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by tigre » 14 Jan 2015 14:02

Hello to all :D; thanks Ironmachine :wink:..........................
From the sources I have, it seems that first arrived at Cádiz a He-59B-2 and a He-60E, but that was on 18 September. Later, on October (maybe on the 14th) arrived another He-59B-2 and another He-60E, again at Cádiz.
I think I can live with this............................
The codes you mention are wrong. The He-60s were coded 512 "La Fiera del Mar" and 513 "El Lobo del Mar". No doubt on that, because there are photographies available.
See below.................

Nevertheless, do know the surnames of the first crew?, because Oblt Karl-Heinz Wolff and Lt. Siegmund Storp AFAIK were observers in He-60 as Oblt. Werner Klümper and Oblt. Diether Leicht were in the He-59B..........and What your sources say about the right codes for those He-59B? Maybe there was a change later..............
Regarding Harald Kahl, I have found great discrepancies. My sources gave the date of Kahl's accident as 13 January 1938, not 13 January 1937
sounds much more logical to me...................

Thanks again pal. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
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Ironmachine
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by Ironmachine » 14 Jan 2015 14:47

During the first months of the war, the two He-60s were coded 512 "La Fiera del Mar" and 513 "El Lobo del Mar".
AFAIK, the picture you posted was taken during the Málaga offensive (February 1937?). Here is a better version of the same picture in which it can be seen that the He-59 is flying together with a He-60 coded 513:
Foto.jpg
On 5 February, during the operations in support of the offensive against Málaga (in the same action in which Diether Leicht was killed and his He-59 destroyed), the He-60 coded "512" ("La Fiera del Mar") was damaged in the upper wing and the propeller. Perhaps while it was being repaired there was a renumbering of that He-59, but I don't know for sure.
Regards.
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tigre
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by tigre » 14 Jan 2015 15:00

Hello to all :D; thanks for your kind reply pal.....................

He-60 Code 512.

No problem with that He-60 code 513 it was "El lobo del mar"......the problem is with " la Fiera del mar"....do you have on hand pictures (I mean photos) with that code..........I just found only a drawing of it with that code in

http://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Seefliegerstaffel_88

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Ironmachine
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by Ironmachine » 14 Jan 2015 18:57

tigre wrote:No problem with that He-60 code 513 it was "El lobo del mar"......the problem is with " la Fiera del mar"....do you have on hand pictures (I mean photos) with that code..........I just found only a drawing of it with that code in
Here you are:
01.jpg
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Ironmachine
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by Ironmachine » 14 Jan 2015 18:59

02.jpg
Both photos taken from Perfiles Aeronáuticos - Heinkel He 60 by Lucas Molina Franco.
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tigre
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by tigre » 14 Jan 2015 19:58

Hello Ironmachine :D; thank you very much for shedding light on this issue....at least one mistery solved :wink:. Now, what keeps me awake is that same code for two different aircrafts :? . Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Ironmachine
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by Ironmachine » 16 Jan 2015 08:44

The article El Heinkel 59 en la Guerra Civil Española by Juan Arráez (published in Cuadernos de Aviación Histórica) says:
Los primeros ejemplares [de He-59] que llegan a España llevan, además, su Werke Nummer sobre el fuselaje, siendo conocidos los aviones 512, 513 y 529.
That would explain the codes of the He-59s: they were the Werke Nummer and were painted in Germany. However, that does not explain the codes of the He-60s. It may be possible, as the He-59s and He-60s arrived at the same time and operated together, that if the He-60s arrived without numbers, someone in Spain decided to use a number similar to those employed by the He-59s. But then, why did they decide to use the same exact numbers in different planes? (please note that if the quoted statement is correct, it was not only the 512 code which was duplicated in both a He-59 and a He-60, but also the 513 code!).

And what's more, in an unrelated thread in another forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/i ... 25026.html), the following information was posted:
2. Tail Numbers allocated to the aircraft of AS./88 are tabled in Appendix 5 ‘Aircraft Numbers’ on pages 186/7 of Rafael Permuy López & César O’Donnell: ‘Sea Planes of the Legion Condor: The Story of AS./88 Squadron in the Spanish Civil War, 1936-1939’ (Schiffer Publishing Ltd, 20 Feb 2010):

Assigned to AS./88 1936-37
511 to 515 He 60
521 to 526 He 59
527 Ju 52/3m (W)
528 to 530 He 59

Assigned to AS./88 1938-39
531 to 548 He 59
And
1. The He 60 and He 59 allocated early on to the Legion Condor in Spain were most likely all drawn from this part of the EHF sequence of manufacturers’ Werk-Nummern:

1.1 He 60 D (17 examples) W.Nr. 485 > 501 (Heinkel Werke, Warnemünde, 1934 production batch) [ordered under the Rhineland LP?] - production batches reconstruction from Günther Ott: He 60 in Jet&Prop 2/92.21

1.2 Intervening batch possibly/likely 26 He 46 B

1.3 He 59 C (16 examples) W.Nr. 528 – 543 (Heinkel Werke, Warnemünde, 1934/5? production) [ordered under the Rhineland LP]
So in Sea Planes of the Legion Condor: The Story of AS./88 Squadron in the Spanish Civil War, 1936-1939 (I have neither that book nor its Spanish version), no code 512 (or 513) is assigned to any He-59, while as we have seen there is at least a photographic evidence of it; and from Jet & Prop Nº 2 it seems that no He-59 with Werke Nummer 512 or 513 was sent to Spain, which contradicts the version from the article I cited at the beginning of this post (though certainly it seems that the W.Nr. list given in Jet & Prop is a reconstruction and may be wrong).

So this post is not really solving the mystery, but instead increasing it... :lol:
Regards.

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tigre
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Re: AS 88 operations

Post by tigre » 16 Jan 2015 14:33

Thank you very much Ironmachine :thumbsup:; interesting info indeed.
So this post is not really solving the mystery, but instead increasing it...
True, after so many years one is tending to think all would be clear by now...............

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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