So as I supposed there is no proof, only his word, and the whole story is quite suspicious. There is still no evidence of the presence of the I-153 in the SCW.
By the way, do you know how many kills was Robert Victor credited with?
Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
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Ironmachine
- Member
- Posts: 5822
- Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
- Location: Spain
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
Hello Mr. Ironmachine ;
First, according to my conversations with him, Mr. Robert Victor was paid for three confirmed kills in the period of August 1936 to December, 1937, One was scored in 1936, while flying a Nieuport 52, the other two in late 1937, flying in I-15s, and for each one, he was paid 100 british pounds IN GOLD. He was, also, during this period, paid 100 british pounds in gold for each month that he flew his assigned duties, first as a ' piloto de caza ', then as a 'piloto especial ' ( which was the period when he was doing test flying work ) and then as a ' piloto de instruccion ' at which time he was serving as an instructor pilot. When he returned to fighting duties in late 1937, he initially was paid at this high rate, but with the sending home of the foreign volunteers, his contract was ended, and he was offered a commission as a 'Tenniente', which he turned down. Instead, he was retained as a ' piloto supernumery', at a much reduced rate of pay, and he was engaged in maintenance and engineering work as well as flying when a spare pilot was needed. As time went on, he took on flying duties that other pilots preferred to avoid, such as sitting on rocket alert, and flying the pre-dawn patrols. As such, he generally flew about 3-4 times per week.
During this latter period, he scored at least 2 more kills, ( these were confirmed in his logbook by witness signatures ) and, he believes, actually a total of 4 more. One of these kills was a Messershmitt Bf109, ( which was listed in his logbook as a 'Heinkel Mono ' ) and two others were Heinkel 51s. These could not be confirmed by others as the dogfighting was too chaotic .
As for his word: he had a number of interesting artifacts which he showed me. First was his helmet and goggles, and his parachute, which was a pre-war Spanish Air Force Irvin parachute. He also had his 'flying leathers' and his 9mm Astra pistol, along with a small box of the special ammunition for it. He showed me his logbooks, page after page filled out with mission notes like "Patrol", " Hi Alt Patrol " " Rocket Alert" and " Low Attack " ( the last was in reference to strafing missions )
He showed me his small collection of photos, each photo was square, about 100mm x 100mm, and sepia toned from age. They showed his Nieuport at Galmornal, along with several other Nieuports and several Breguet 19s. One photo, which he said he snapped right before they evacuated Galmornal, showed one of the Breguets, with the wings and engine removed, being wrecked, as it was unflyable and could not be evacuated.
There were a number of photos of him with other pilots, one of them where a group of pilots were posing with a Polikarpov I-15, and in the photo was a pilot who Mr. Victor identified as 'Dick Dickinson".
As for the I-153, when he first mentioned it, and showed me the listing in his logbook, ( the aircraft is listed as ' Super Chato CC62' ) I was intrigued. Recently there had been published in an aviation magazine an article on a Polikarpov I-153 that had found it's way to the French Musee de L'Aire in Paris, and I had obtained a copy of the magazine. I wondered: Could this be Mr. Victor's aircraft that he had flown to the south of France in 1939?
The next time I went up to visit him, among other things, I brought him the magazine. He opened up the magazine, ( the centerfold was a two page photo of the aircraft in full color, taken from the right side ) and his eyes brightened and he smiled. Then, his expression changed, and he began to examine the photo closely. He pointed with his finger at the photo, and said, " It looked a lot like this, but this isn't the same aircraft."
He then began to point out differences. The cowling, he said, was different. He described it as more cylindrical, and not teardrop shaped like the Musee de L'Aire machine. He further stated that the aircraft he flew had a propeller spinner identical to those on the Polikarpov I-16s, while the aircraft in the Musee de L'Aire had no such spinner. Also, he stated that the cockpit canopy was different, and described it as being like a Super Mosca ( I-16 Type 10 ) canopy, and that it had a telescopic gunsight.
He also showed where they had removed the landing gear doors, and pointed out that the French machine still had it's landing gear doors. Finally, he pointed to the red Soviet stars on the fuselage, and stated that the machine he had flown had no stars, but had been painted with red republican stripes and tail tricolor after he got it to the 3rd squadron.
We went through the article together, and the article stated that the Musee de L'Aire I-153 had an 1100 hp M62 engine. Mr. Victor stated that the aircraft he had flown did NOT have 1100 horsepower, but was similar in power to the regular I-15s that he had flown. From this I concluded that it had an M25 engine, either an M25A or an M25S. Mr. Victor, at my urging, made a number of notes on the photos in the magazine, and even free-hand sketched the shape of the cowling and the windscreen over the photo, to show the differences.
Finally, he was very definite that the I-153 he had flown had been armed with 4 ShKas machine guns, and described the difference between them and the earlier 'Maxim' guns of the I-15. His description of how the four guns filled the cockpit with smoke was very clear. He also described how, in flight, the two lower guns were cocked using the heels of one's feet, one at a time.
Now, Mr. Ironmachine, this was in the year 1979. At that time, the amount of aviation information from the Soviet Union was very sparse, and there was almost nothing on Soviet aviation in the 1930s.
Mr. Victor died in 1992, just a year or two after the fall of the Soviet Union. In the past quarter century, a lot of information has come out about Soviet Aviation in the 1930s.
And, for your use, I am attaching a photo of an I-153 prototype. Compare it with Mr. Victor's description, and recall that this photo, to the best of my knowledge, was not available until after his death. I must confess, the first time I saw it in a book on Polikarpovs, I gasped. There it was ! Mr. Victor's ' thoroughbred ' . In the book were other photos showing an I-153 prototype on stands for wheel tests, and one in which the aircraft had suffered a landing incident due to faulty landing gear retraction. Exactly as Mr. Victor had described it, over a decade earlier.
Also, if you look at the landing gear doors on the prototype I-153, and compare them to those on a production machine, you will see clear differences. I believe that the Soviets had trouble with this design, and it took some time and a number of crashes to 'work the bugs out of the system'.
I believe that what the Soviets were doing was using Spain as a testing ground for the new fighter, and that the chaos and confusion of the last few weeks of the war resulted in it disappearing into history.
Is there any documentation of this? Perhaps in the USSR..... But Mr. Victor remembered. And he remembered how the Spanish Pilot who crashed the other I-153 sat down on the ground next to the wreckage of the irrepairably damaged fighter and sobbed uncontrollably. The image never left him, and when he told me of it, four decades later, I could see how this tragedy, like all the tragedies of the Spanish Civil War, had never left him.
Respectfully;
Paul R. Ward
[img]
[/img]
First, according to my conversations with him, Mr. Robert Victor was paid for three confirmed kills in the period of August 1936 to December, 1937, One was scored in 1936, while flying a Nieuport 52, the other two in late 1937, flying in I-15s, and for each one, he was paid 100 british pounds IN GOLD. He was, also, during this period, paid 100 british pounds in gold for each month that he flew his assigned duties, first as a ' piloto de caza ', then as a 'piloto especial ' ( which was the period when he was doing test flying work ) and then as a ' piloto de instruccion ' at which time he was serving as an instructor pilot. When he returned to fighting duties in late 1937, he initially was paid at this high rate, but with the sending home of the foreign volunteers, his contract was ended, and he was offered a commission as a 'Tenniente', which he turned down. Instead, he was retained as a ' piloto supernumery', at a much reduced rate of pay, and he was engaged in maintenance and engineering work as well as flying when a spare pilot was needed. As time went on, he took on flying duties that other pilots preferred to avoid, such as sitting on rocket alert, and flying the pre-dawn patrols. As such, he generally flew about 3-4 times per week.
During this latter period, he scored at least 2 more kills, ( these were confirmed in his logbook by witness signatures ) and, he believes, actually a total of 4 more. One of these kills was a Messershmitt Bf109, ( which was listed in his logbook as a 'Heinkel Mono ' ) and two others were Heinkel 51s. These could not be confirmed by others as the dogfighting was too chaotic .
As for his word: he had a number of interesting artifacts which he showed me. First was his helmet and goggles, and his parachute, which was a pre-war Spanish Air Force Irvin parachute. He also had his 'flying leathers' and his 9mm Astra pistol, along with a small box of the special ammunition for it. He showed me his logbooks, page after page filled out with mission notes like "Patrol", " Hi Alt Patrol " " Rocket Alert" and " Low Attack " ( the last was in reference to strafing missions )
He showed me his small collection of photos, each photo was square, about 100mm x 100mm, and sepia toned from age. They showed his Nieuport at Galmornal, along with several other Nieuports and several Breguet 19s. One photo, which he said he snapped right before they evacuated Galmornal, showed one of the Breguets, with the wings and engine removed, being wrecked, as it was unflyable and could not be evacuated.
There were a number of photos of him with other pilots, one of them where a group of pilots were posing with a Polikarpov I-15, and in the photo was a pilot who Mr. Victor identified as 'Dick Dickinson".
As for the I-153, when he first mentioned it, and showed me the listing in his logbook, ( the aircraft is listed as ' Super Chato CC62' ) I was intrigued. Recently there had been published in an aviation magazine an article on a Polikarpov I-153 that had found it's way to the French Musee de L'Aire in Paris, and I had obtained a copy of the magazine. I wondered: Could this be Mr. Victor's aircraft that he had flown to the south of France in 1939?
The next time I went up to visit him, among other things, I brought him the magazine. He opened up the magazine, ( the centerfold was a two page photo of the aircraft in full color, taken from the right side ) and his eyes brightened and he smiled. Then, his expression changed, and he began to examine the photo closely. He pointed with his finger at the photo, and said, " It looked a lot like this, but this isn't the same aircraft."
He then began to point out differences. The cowling, he said, was different. He described it as more cylindrical, and not teardrop shaped like the Musee de L'Aire machine. He further stated that the aircraft he flew had a propeller spinner identical to those on the Polikarpov I-16s, while the aircraft in the Musee de L'Aire had no such spinner. Also, he stated that the cockpit canopy was different, and described it as being like a Super Mosca ( I-16 Type 10 ) canopy, and that it had a telescopic gunsight.
He also showed where they had removed the landing gear doors, and pointed out that the French machine still had it's landing gear doors. Finally, he pointed to the red Soviet stars on the fuselage, and stated that the machine he had flown had no stars, but had been painted with red republican stripes and tail tricolor after he got it to the 3rd squadron.
We went through the article together, and the article stated that the Musee de L'Aire I-153 had an 1100 hp M62 engine. Mr. Victor stated that the aircraft he had flown did NOT have 1100 horsepower, but was similar in power to the regular I-15s that he had flown. From this I concluded that it had an M25 engine, either an M25A or an M25S. Mr. Victor, at my urging, made a number of notes on the photos in the magazine, and even free-hand sketched the shape of the cowling and the windscreen over the photo, to show the differences.
Finally, he was very definite that the I-153 he had flown had been armed with 4 ShKas machine guns, and described the difference between them and the earlier 'Maxim' guns of the I-15. His description of how the four guns filled the cockpit with smoke was very clear. He also described how, in flight, the two lower guns were cocked using the heels of one's feet, one at a time.
Now, Mr. Ironmachine, this was in the year 1979. At that time, the amount of aviation information from the Soviet Union was very sparse, and there was almost nothing on Soviet aviation in the 1930s.
Mr. Victor died in 1992, just a year or two after the fall of the Soviet Union. In the past quarter century, a lot of information has come out about Soviet Aviation in the 1930s.
And, for your use, I am attaching a photo of an I-153 prototype. Compare it with Mr. Victor's description, and recall that this photo, to the best of my knowledge, was not available until after his death. I must confess, the first time I saw it in a book on Polikarpovs, I gasped. There it was ! Mr. Victor's ' thoroughbred ' . In the book were other photos showing an I-153 prototype on stands for wheel tests, and one in which the aircraft had suffered a landing incident due to faulty landing gear retraction. Exactly as Mr. Victor had described it, over a decade earlier.
Also, if you look at the landing gear doors on the prototype I-153, and compare them to those on a production machine, you will see clear differences. I believe that the Soviets had trouble with this design, and it took some time and a number of crashes to 'work the bugs out of the system'.
I believe that what the Soviets were doing was using Spain as a testing ground for the new fighter, and that the chaos and confusion of the last few weeks of the war resulted in it disappearing into history.
Is there any documentation of this? Perhaps in the USSR..... But Mr. Victor remembered. And he remembered how the Spanish Pilot who crashed the other I-153 sat down on the ground next to the wreckage of the irrepairably damaged fighter and sobbed uncontrollably. The image never left him, and when he told me of it, four decades later, I could see how this tragedy, like all the tragedies of the Spanish Civil War, had never left him.
Respectfully;
Paul R. Ward
[img]
- Polikarpov I-153 prototype
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !
-
Ironmachine
- Member
- Posts: 5822
- Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
- Location: Spain
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
As I suspected, the whole story is quite dubious. I'm not an expert in the field of republican pilots of the SCW, but there are quite a number of details that seem to indicate that something is "rotten". To number just a few:
1) He was (arrived?) in Spain almost at the onset of the SCW and was immediately placed in the cockpit of a Ni-52?
2) He was paid 100 british pounds IN GOLD per month? Leaving aside the problem of actually finding 100 british pounds in gold each month in a Spain where there were not even enough "pesetas" in circulation, that is simply a crazy quantity. Per the official change in June 1936 that would ammount to 3,665 pesetas (plus extras) per month!
3) The Galmornal ( Spelling ? )airfield, west of Madrid. Gamonal comes to my mind, but that was in Burgos.
4) Mr. Victor was a pilot good enough to be test pilot and instructor pilot and reach ace status (supposedly he downed down at leat five aircraft), but he was not good enough to fly the I-16? And then he was given a I-153 because he had some flight time in the I-16 (apparently nobody told them that he his skills were not up to the task)?
5) Mr. Victor had five confirmed victories, but I can't find him in any ace list of the SCW. In fact, a quick google search gave no result for a Robert Victor pilot in the SCW.
6) The Messershmitt Bf109 could not be confirmed as the dogfighting was too chaotic, but he claims that his wingman had kept formation, flying the whole action at his side?
7) The whole "supernumerary" section sounds quite strange.
8) There are problems with the dates and numbers of planes that supposedly arrived that included the I-153s.
9) The "Chato" squadrons were not so badly depleted at the time. The "Mosca" squadrons were, but the "Chato" was being produced in Spain (nearly 3 aircraft per day, IIRC), so losses were covered in the units.
10) IIRC, the new I-152s were given to new crews directly coming from the KIrovabad flying school, not to veteran "Chato" pilots.
I could go on, but I think I have shown why I am reticent to believe Mr. Victor's tale.
The cowling does not look to me as being teardrop-shaped, but fairly cylindrical, just like in the prototype in your photography.
And as for "disappearing into history", we are not talking about a single aircraft taken furtively into and out of Spain under a high measure of secrecy. No, we are talking about four planes, which means that at least four pilots flew them, plus they were sent with their "escuadrillas", which again means two full "escuadrillas" of pilots that would have had direct contact with the planes, plus the mechanics and support crews. And a "Chato" with a retractable landing gear is not going to go unnoticed to people used to the standard "Chato". And AFAIK no one of all those "witnesses" of the I-153 presence in Spain
had talked about it.
1) He was (arrived?) in Spain almost at the onset of the SCW and was immediately placed in the cockpit of a Ni-52?
2) He was paid 100 british pounds IN GOLD per month? Leaving aside the problem of actually finding 100 british pounds in gold each month in a Spain where there were not even enough "pesetas" in circulation, that is simply a crazy quantity. Per the official change in June 1936 that would ammount to 3,665 pesetas (plus extras) per month!
3) The Galmornal ( Spelling ? )airfield, west of Madrid. Gamonal comes to my mind, but that was in Burgos.
4) Mr. Victor was a pilot good enough to be test pilot and instructor pilot and reach ace status (supposedly he downed down at leat five aircraft), but he was not good enough to fly the I-16? And then he was given a I-153 because he had some flight time in the I-16 (apparently nobody told them that he his skills were not up to the task)?
5) Mr. Victor had five confirmed victories, but I can't find him in any ace list of the SCW. In fact, a quick google search gave no result for a Robert Victor pilot in the SCW.
6) The Messershmitt Bf109 could not be confirmed as the dogfighting was too chaotic, but he claims that his wingman had kept formation, flying the whole action at his side?
7) The whole "supernumerary" section sounds quite strange.
8) There are problems with the dates and numbers of planes that supposedly arrived that included the I-153s.
9) The "Chato" squadrons were not so badly depleted at the time. The "Mosca" squadrons were, but the "Chato" was being produced in Spain (nearly 3 aircraft per day, IIRC), so losses were covered in the units.
10) IIRC, the new I-152s were given to new crews directly coming from the KIrovabad flying school, not to veteran "Chato" pilots.
I could go on, but I think I have shown why I am reticent to believe Mr. Victor's tale.
Yes, probably he had a number of interesting artifacts. Whether those were from his service in Spain or not, that's another question. He could have obtained them by a number of ways, and forgery is not to be dismissed happily without further confirmation. However, it is only his claim that some I-153 were in Spain that interest me, and for that we have only his word.paulrward wrote:As for his word: he had a number of interesting artifacts which he showed me. First was his helmet and goggles, and his parachute, which was a pre-war Spanish Air Force Irvin parachute. He also had his 'flying leathers' and his 9mm Astra pistol, along with a small box of the special ammunition for it. He showed me his logbooks, page after page filled out with mission notes like "Patrol", " Hi Alt Patrol " " Rocket Alert" and " Low Attack " ( the last was in reference to strafing missions )
He showed me his small collection of photos, each photo was square, about 100mm x 100mm, and sepia toned from age. They showed his Nieuport at Galmornal, along with several other Nieuports and several Breguet 19s. One photo, which he said he snapped right before they evacuated Galmornal, showed one of the Breguets, with the wings and engine removed, being wrecked, as it was unflyable and could not be evacuated.
There were a number of photos of him with other pilots, one of them where a group of pilots were posing with a Polikarpov I-15, and in the photo was a pilot who Mr. Victor identified as 'Dick Dickinson".
It is well known that this aircraft was never in Spain.paulrward wrote:As for the I-153, when he first mentioned it, and showed me the listing in his logbook, ( the aircraft is listed as ' Super Chato CC62' ) I was intrigued. Recently there had been published in an aviation magazine an article on a Polikarpov I-153 that had found it's way to the French Musee de L'Aire in Paris, and I had obtained a copy of the magazine. I wondered: Could this be Mr. Victor's aircraft that he had flown to the south of France in 1939?
Now, Mr. Ward, even if you remember accurately what Mr. Victor told you instead of just filling up the holes in your memories (this was in the year 1979, after all), you had no way to know how much he knew about Soviet aviation in the 1930s or how he obtained that knowlege. There's nothing so remarkably obscure in his tale as to need a direct contact with the plane to know about it. And some details seem to be simply wrong. Look at this photograply of the I-153 at the Musee de L'Air (taken from wikipedia):paulrward wrote:The next time I went up to visit him, among other things, I brought him the magazine. He opened up the magazine, ( the centerfold was a two page photo of the aircraft in full color, taken from the right side ) and his eyes brightened and he smiled. Then, his expression changed, and he began to examine the photo closely. He pointed with his finger at the photo, and said, " It looked a lot like this, but this isn't the same aircraft."
He then began to point out differences. The cowling, he said, was different. He described it as more cylindrical, and not teardrop shaped like the Musee de L'Aire machine. He further stated that the aircraft he flew had a propeller spinner identical to those on the Polikarpov I-16s, while the aircraft in the Musee de L'Aire had no such spinner. Also, he stated that the cockpit canopy was different, and described it as being like a Super Mosca ( I-16 Type 10 ) canopy, and that it had a telescopic gunsight.
He also showed where they had removed the landing gear doors, and pointed out that the French machine still had it's landing gear doors. Finally, he pointed to the red Soviet stars on the fuselage, and stated that the machine he had flown had no stars, but had been painted with red republican stripes and tail tricolor after he got it to the 3rd squadron.
We went through the article together, and the article stated that the Musee de L'Aire I-153 had an 1100 hp M62 engine. Mr. Victor stated that the aircraft he had flown did NOT have 1100 horsepower, but was similar in power to the regular I-15s that he had flown. From this I concluded that it had an M25 engine, either an M25A or an M25S. Mr. Victor, at my urging, made a number of notes on the photos in the magazine, and even free-hand sketched the shape of the cowling and the windscreen over the photo, to show the differences.
Finally, he was very definite that the I-153 he had flown had been armed with 4 ShKas machine guns, and described the difference between them and the earlier 'Maxim' guns of the I-15. His description of how the four guns filled the cockpit with smoke was very clear. He also described how, in flight, the two lower guns were cocked using the heels of one's feet, one at a time.
Now, Mr. Ironmachine, this was in the year 1979. At that time, the amount of aviation information from the Soviet Union was very sparse, and there was almost nothing on Soviet aviation in the 1930s.
- url.jpeg (58.41 KiB) Viewed 1828 times
That would be a first, because the Soviet, unlike the Germans, did not sent prototypes to be tested AFAIK. But if that was the intention, it would have been quite strange to do it at that time, when the situation was clearly dangerous regarding the loss of the aircraft. And it would have been even stranger to gave those aircrafts to foreign (for the Soviets, I mean) pilots, not selected in any particular way, and sent them into combat with neither detailed instructions as to what to do and what not to do nor any order to report about its performance. Even more so, a pilot decided that he wanted to lock the landing gear in the down position, which basically denied any test value the aircraft could have, and everybody (well, that seems to be just a handful of mechanics without further supervision) agrees and let him go away with the plane? As a testing procedure, it is remarkably unprofessional! This kind of amateur behaviour would not be unusual in the Aviación republicana, but with the Soviets involved I would expect a more professional approach to combat testing.paulrward wrote:I believe that what the Soviets were doing was using Spain as a testing ground for the new fighter, and that the chaos and confusion of the last few weeks of the war resulted in it disappearing into history.
And as for "disappearing into history", we are not talking about a single aircraft taken furtively into and out of Spain under a high measure of secrecy. No, we are talking about four planes, which means that at least four pilots flew them, plus they were sent with their "escuadrillas", which again means two full "escuadrillas" of pilots that would have had direct contact with the planes, plus the mechanics and support crews. And a "Chato" with a retractable landing gear is not going to go unnoticed to people used to the standard "Chato". And AFAIK no one of all those "witnesses" of the I-153 presence in Spain
had talked about it.
And now we are in 2015 and a lot of new information has come out both in the Soviet Union and in Spain... and nothing about the I-153 flying in the Spanish skies.paulrward wrote:Is there any documentation of this? Perhaps in the USSR.....
No, Mr. Victor did not remember; he said he remembered, which is very, very different. He could be right, of course; but he could be wrong, or plainly lying. Whatever the case, he had no solid proof to support his statement, so it is of no value at all as proof of the I-153 presence in Spain. All with all due respect, in him you could only see what you wanted to see.paulrward wrote:But Mr. Victor remembered. And he remembered how the Spanish Pilot who crashed the other I-153 sat down on the ground next to the wreckage of the irrepairably damaged fighter and sobbed uncontrollably. The image never left him, and when he told me of it, four decades later, I could see how this tragedy, like all the tragedies of the Spanish Civil War, had never left him.
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
Hello Mr. Ironmachine ;
Perhaps he could have been lying. Perhaps he had found a way to get photos of himself with other pilots in front of an I-15. Perhaps he could have gotten hold of a pre SCW spanish parachute. But here are a few more facts.
At first, he was very reticent to talk of his experiences. He was not a native born American, but was born in Britain, and his family moved to the U.S. during the WW1. He went back to Britain to attend a university, and, after that, remained in Britain, where he worked in the oil industry, working as a sort of technical salesman for the British Benzol Corporation, servicing airports and aircraft industries with technical expertise on fuels and lubricants. Thus, he was a naturalized American Citizen, living in Britain based on his original British Citizenship, and working, which was, more or less, against the law. So, he kept a low profile, and didn't talk about a lot of things in general conversation.
As part of his job, he took flying lessons, and obtained what was called an 'A' license, the lowest sort you could get. This was to allow him into flying clubs, and to hob-nob with pilots as 'one of them', which allowed him an inside track when it came to making sales calls.
In 1936, when the fighting broke out in Spain, most of the aircraft in the Spanish Air Force remained in the hands of the Republicans, while the pilots, who were mainly officers of the 'noble' class, turned traiter and joined the Fascists. Thus, the Republican government needed pilots, and needed them right NOW ! Mr. Victor was in his 30s, and was, as he put it, "feeling sort of restless and at loose ends" .
There were a number of spanish agents recruiting pilots in Britain and France, and Mr. Victor was introduced to one at an airfield. He was encouraged to go to London, and meet with a representative of the Republican government there. At the meeting, he was offered the salary of 100 Pounds, payable in gold to the bank of his choice, if, after arriving in Madrid, he was able to pass a flight test and was willing to sign a contract. In addition, it was intimated that, if he was to be in combat, and shot down an enemy aircraft, he would be paid an additional 100 pounds per 'kill'.
Taking what he thought might be an extended leave from his firm, he traveled, first to Paris, where, at the Spanish Embassy, he was given a travel voucher and a permit to enter Spain. Travelling to the border by train, he passed through customs, and boarded another train to Madrid.
Arriving in Madrid, he went to the Air Ministry, where, after an interview, he was given letters instructing him to go the the Getafe Air Field, where he would be flight tested. The following morning, he arrived at Getafe, and a Spanish Officer checked him out and flight tested him in a Dehavilland Moth biplane. Mr. Victor described the flight as a quick 10 minute affair, take off, a few turns, flight around a point, and descent and landing.
Following this, about an hour later, he was flight tested in a Breguet 19, which was referred to as a 'Seski' . This flight, with an officer in the gunner's seat, took about 15 minutes, and again, was a take off, quick flight, and landing. Mr. Victor stated that he had never flown such a large aircraft before, but that it seemed to present no problems, which, as he put it, was fortunate for the Spanish officer in the back seat, as there were NO controls in the rear seat. If Mr. Victor had been unable to fly or land the Breguet, the Spaniard would have been in a very bad spot indeed. ( Mr. Victor's somewhat British sense of understatement )
That being completed, his logbook was noted that he was a qualified pilot, and he returned to the Air Ministry, where he completed the contract, and was now a mercenary pilot, a 'soldier of fortune' in a war. The contract also included a death benefit, and he had to provide information as to what he wanted done with his remains......
The following morning, he and two other pilots, one Spanish and one French, were loaded into the back of a truck, and spent the morning and part of the afternoon being driven to ( Gamonal ? - I can't seem to find it on any map ) where they were left off at the airfield. At the field were six Breguets 19s, and three Nieuport 52s. The comander was a Captain Cascon, who informed them that they had all the pilots they needed at that moment, but that he was informed that some more aircraft were going to be flown in very soon. When that occurred, they could fly those aircraft.
About an hour later, three Nieuport 52s flew in and landed. The three pilots got out, and, after handing over some paperwork to Captain Cascon, they climbed into the truck, and were driven back to Madrid. Cascon got the three new pilots, including Mr. Victor, told them that these were their aircraft, and that they should familiarize themselves, and when they felt ready, take them for a test flight.
Mr. Victor spent about an hour going over the Nieuport, which he said had some interesting features, such as NO FIREWALL between the engine and the cockpit. As he put it, " The arse-end of the motor was right between the pilot's feet ! " The Nieuport also had two machine guns.
Then he took it for a test hop. ( He described the starting procedure as being done by three mechanics using a rope and a sort of leather boot that they put around one the prop tips, giving it a sharp tug to get it started. ) He did a few turns, a few stalls, and then a few landings. He described the cockpit as very primitive, with no instrument panel, instead the instruments were mounted on the inside walls of the fuselage. He did not get a chance to test the guns, but said that, aside from being very heavy on the controls, the aircraft flew quite well.
The next day, he flew on his first war patrol.
As for him not being in Google, or anywhere much else. Mr. Ironmachine, what Mr. Victor was doing was ILLEGAL. Against the law. While he was in Spain, he kept a low profile. He gave no newspaper interviews, held no press conferences. When he returned to Britain in 1939, he quickly discovered that the Republicans were considered by the British ' man in the street ' as 'Reds' and were very unpopular. Coupled with the fact that, while he had some of his pay in his bank ( early on, it had been paid, on time and in gold, later, he was paid in paper pesetas that were worthless ), he had also come back from Spain with a case of Tuberculosis. He grew steadily worse, and he was advised to seek a better climate. ( The looming war with Germany was also a motivator, he said that he had lost one war, he didn't need to lose another. )
Traveling to Canada as a British Citizen, he crossed over into the United States ( the border guards in those days were mainly concerned that you didn't bring any holly into the U.S. ) and he returned to Baltimore, Maryland, where his parents and his younger sister lived. His health continued to deteriorate, and so he moved west to Califonia, in hopes that the warmer climate would help.
He spent the better part of a year in a Sanitarium, and, by early 1941, had recovered enough to pick up the pieces of his life. He looked around for a job, and found one, doing engineering work on aircraft fuel systems, as he had learned a great deal ' on the job '. He continued in this line of work throughout the 1950s, and retired in the early 1960s, doing occasional consulting work for a number of aerospace companies.
Again, I must note: What he had done was illegal, and, the United States Government made it VERY hard on those Americans who went to Spain to fight for the Republicans, calling them 'Premature Anti-Fascists', and treating them like traitors and criminals. Things got a little better during WW2, but after WW2 ended, there were the ' Red Scares '. the McCarthy Witch-hunts, and the House Un-American Activities Committee, where anyone who had anything to do with Communism was black-listed, losing jobs, careers, and often going to prison. Mr. Victor, with one exception in 1941, had told no one in the U.S. of his Spanish escapade, and he continued to keep a low profile. As he had traveled to Spain on his British Passport, there was no record in the U.S. of his activities, and, when he as asked, " Are you now or have you ever been " He simply lied. He never told the United States that he had flown against the best pilots that Hitler and Mussolini could throw at him.
He was allowed to have a security clearance, that allowed him to work on military aerospace projects, and, in 1961, was taken for a ride in a two seat Lockheed F104 Starfighter. They went to over Mach 2, and he said it was quite an experience to fly faster than the bullets he had fired from his Chato......
But, if his experiences had become known, he would have lost his job and income, and, quite possibly, the United States would, and could, have voided his U.S. Citizenship and forced him to leave the country. in any case, it would have been disastrously expensive to fight the legal case, and his health probably could not have taken it.
And now a personal note: I met Mr. Victor in the waiting room of doctor who specialized in Pulmonary Medicine. He was there for his annual checkup for his Tuberculosis. I had been coughing up blood for some weeks. What I saw, sitting there, was an older man, thin, of middle height, wearing a leather flying jacket with a sheepskin collar, reading a magazine. I noticed his jacket, and, excusing myself to him, asked him if his jacket was a B-3 Jacket, which was the type worn by U.S. bomber crews during WW2.
He said, no, it was an RAF Irwin jacket. ( These were worn by Spitfire pilots in WW2 ) He had a slight British accent, and I asked him if he had served in the RAF ? He sat for a moment, silent, and then said, ' No, I flew in a war you never heard of. It was called the Spanish Civil War...."
All I knew about the Spanish Civil War was that the Russians had sent a fighter called the Polikarpov Mosca, which I had built a plastic model of many years before. So I asked, "Did you fly Moscas? "
He looked at me with great surprise, and said, " Yes, but only briefly. I mainly flew a plane called the Chato. " We exchanged names, and I told him I was very interested in talking to him about his flying experiences.
At that moment, he was called in for his visit with the doctor, and I sat, waiting. I then went in for my own, very quick appointment, and when I came out, waited for a few minutes, hoping that he would come out. When he did, he was seemed surprised to see me still there, but I told him I was very interested in talking to him. I gave him one of my business cards, with my home phone number written on the back. We shook hands, and I went back to work.
About two weeks later, on Saturday Morning, my phone rang. The voice at the other end introduced himself, and we began to talk. The call lasted for over an hour, and at then end of it, I arranged to drive up to South San Francisco were he lived. This was the first of a number of meetings, including one where I took him flying and showed him the aircraft I had purchased. ( a single seat Pitts Special )
Our flight together, in a Citabria, was a lot of fun. He took the controls right after take-off, and, if he hadn't been flying in some 40 years, you could not tell. He flew with perfect coordination, and made a wing-over into a diving half loop that was smooth and crisp. As he pulled out of it, he looked over his shoulder back at me, and said, " Oops! Should I have done that?" I told him probably not, as we weren't wearing parachutes, and he started to laugh. It was the sort of moment that only pilots can really appreciate.
Now, as to his recollections of the I-153 - Below is a photo of the I-153 at Musee de L'Aire. Note how the cowling tapers, that is, it is of reduced diameter as you move aft. Note the photo in the my previous posting. It is a different cowling. Mr Victor described an aircraft he had flown, which was one of the pre-production aircraft. Mr. Ironmachine, I don't know how old you are, but in the 1970s, that sort of detailed information about 1930s Soviet aircraft was just not available.
There was a thing called the Iron Curtain. Perhaps you may have heard of it, if not, you will find it mentioned in some of the history books.....
Mr. Ironmachine, there is a principal in logic called Occam's Razor. It says, if you have two theories, the simpler theory is usually the correct one. One theory is that a footloose, adventurous Anglo American went to fight for adventure and gold, and the other theory is that he concocted a story, obtained lots of evidence in the form of photos, logbooks, artifacts, etc, to back it up, and then kept it a secret for most of his life.
You are entitled to your own opinion.
Respectfully ;
Paul R. Ward
[img]
[/img]
Perhaps he could have been lying. Perhaps he had found a way to get photos of himself with other pilots in front of an I-15. Perhaps he could have gotten hold of a pre SCW spanish parachute. But here are a few more facts.
At first, he was very reticent to talk of his experiences. He was not a native born American, but was born in Britain, and his family moved to the U.S. during the WW1. He went back to Britain to attend a university, and, after that, remained in Britain, where he worked in the oil industry, working as a sort of technical salesman for the British Benzol Corporation, servicing airports and aircraft industries with technical expertise on fuels and lubricants. Thus, he was a naturalized American Citizen, living in Britain based on his original British Citizenship, and working, which was, more or less, against the law. So, he kept a low profile, and didn't talk about a lot of things in general conversation.
As part of his job, he took flying lessons, and obtained what was called an 'A' license, the lowest sort you could get. This was to allow him into flying clubs, and to hob-nob with pilots as 'one of them', which allowed him an inside track when it came to making sales calls.
In 1936, when the fighting broke out in Spain, most of the aircraft in the Spanish Air Force remained in the hands of the Republicans, while the pilots, who were mainly officers of the 'noble' class, turned traiter and joined the Fascists. Thus, the Republican government needed pilots, and needed them right NOW ! Mr. Victor was in his 30s, and was, as he put it, "feeling sort of restless and at loose ends" .
There were a number of spanish agents recruiting pilots in Britain and France, and Mr. Victor was introduced to one at an airfield. He was encouraged to go to London, and meet with a representative of the Republican government there. At the meeting, he was offered the salary of 100 Pounds, payable in gold to the bank of his choice, if, after arriving in Madrid, he was able to pass a flight test and was willing to sign a contract. In addition, it was intimated that, if he was to be in combat, and shot down an enemy aircraft, he would be paid an additional 100 pounds per 'kill'.
Taking what he thought might be an extended leave from his firm, he traveled, first to Paris, where, at the Spanish Embassy, he was given a travel voucher and a permit to enter Spain. Travelling to the border by train, he passed through customs, and boarded another train to Madrid.
Arriving in Madrid, he went to the Air Ministry, where, after an interview, he was given letters instructing him to go the the Getafe Air Field, where he would be flight tested. The following morning, he arrived at Getafe, and a Spanish Officer checked him out and flight tested him in a Dehavilland Moth biplane. Mr. Victor described the flight as a quick 10 minute affair, take off, a few turns, flight around a point, and descent and landing.
Following this, about an hour later, he was flight tested in a Breguet 19, which was referred to as a 'Seski' . This flight, with an officer in the gunner's seat, took about 15 minutes, and again, was a take off, quick flight, and landing. Mr. Victor stated that he had never flown such a large aircraft before, but that it seemed to present no problems, which, as he put it, was fortunate for the Spanish officer in the back seat, as there were NO controls in the rear seat. If Mr. Victor had been unable to fly or land the Breguet, the Spaniard would have been in a very bad spot indeed. ( Mr. Victor's somewhat British sense of understatement )
That being completed, his logbook was noted that he was a qualified pilot, and he returned to the Air Ministry, where he completed the contract, and was now a mercenary pilot, a 'soldier of fortune' in a war. The contract also included a death benefit, and he had to provide information as to what he wanted done with his remains......
The following morning, he and two other pilots, one Spanish and one French, were loaded into the back of a truck, and spent the morning and part of the afternoon being driven to ( Gamonal ? - I can't seem to find it on any map ) where they were left off at the airfield. At the field were six Breguets 19s, and three Nieuport 52s. The comander was a Captain Cascon, who informed them that they had all the pilots they needed at that moment, but that he was informed that some more aircraft were going to be flown in very soon. When that occurred, they could fly those aircraft.
About an hour later, three Nieuport 52s flew in and landed. The three pilots got out, and, after handing over some paperwork to Captain Cascon, they climbed into the truck, and were driven back to Madrid. Cascon got the three new pilots, including Mr. Victor, told them that these were their aircraft, and that they should familiarize themselves, and when they felt ready, take them for a test flight.
Mr. Victor spent about an hour going over the Nieuport, which he said had some interesting features, such as NO FIREWALL between the engine and the cockpit. As he put it, " The arse-end of the motor was right between the pilot's feet ! " The Nieuport also had two machine guns.
Then he took it for a test hop. ( He described the starting procedure as being done by three mechanics using a rope and a sort of leather boot that they put around one the prop tips, giving it a sharp tug to get it started. ) He did a few turns, a few stalls, and then a few landings. He described the cockpit as very primitive, with no instrument panel, instead the instruments were mounted on the inside walls of the fuselage. He did not get a chance to test the guns, but said that, aside from being very heavy on the controls, the aircraft flew quite well.
The next day, he flew on his first war patrol.
As for him not being in Google, or anywhere much else. Mr. Ironmachine, what Mr. Victor was doing was ILLEGAL. Against the law. While he was in Spain, he kept a low profile. He gave no newspaper interviews, held no press conferences. When he returned to Britain in 1939, he quickly discovered that the Republicans were considered by the British ' man in the street ' as 'Reds' and were very unpopular. Coupled with the fact that, while he had some of his pay in his bank ( early on, it had been paid, on time and in gold, later, he was paid in paper pesetas that were worthless ), he had also come back from Spain with a case of Tuberculosis. He grew steadily worse, and he was advised to seek a better climate. ( The looming war with Germany was also a motivator, he said that he had lost one war, he didn't need to lose another. )
Traveling to Canada as a British Citizen, he crossed over into the United States ( the border guards in those days were mainly concerned that you didn't bring any holly into the U.S. ) and he returned to Baltimore, Maryland, where his parents and his younger sister lived. His health continued to deteriorate, and so he moved west to Califonia, in hopes that the warmer climate would help.
He spent the better part of a year in a Sanitarium, and, by early 1941, had recovered enough to pick up the pieces of his life. He looked around for a job, and found one, doing engineering work on aircraft fuel systems, as he had learned a great deal ' on the job '. He continued in this line of work throughout the 1950s, and retired in the early 1960s, doing occasional consulting work for a number of aerospace companies.
Again, I must note: What he had done was illegal, and, the United States Government made it VERY hard on those Americans who went to Spain to fight for the Republicans, calling them 'Premature Anti-Fascists', and treating them like traitors and criminals. Things got a little better during WW2, but after WW2 ended, there were the ' Red Scares '. the McCarthy Witch-hunts, and the House Un-American Activities Committee, where anyone who had anything to do with Communism was black-listed, losing jobs, careers, and often going to prison. Mr. Victor, with one exception in 1941, had told no one in the U.S. of his Spanish escapade, and he continued to keep a low profile. As he had traveled to Spain on his British Passport, there was no record in the U.S. of his activities, and, when he as asked, " Are you now or have you ever been " He simply lied. He never told the United States that he had flown against the best pilots that Hitler and Mussolini could throw at him.
He was allowed to have a security clearance, that allowed him to work on military aerospace projects, and, in 1961, was taken for a ride in a two seat Lockheed F104 Starfighter. They went to over Mach 2, and he said it was quite an experience to fly faster than the bullets he had fired from his Chato......
But, if his experiences had become known, he would have lost his job and income, and, quite possibly, the United States would, and could, have voided his U.S. Citizenship and forced him to leave the country. in any case, it would have been disastrously expensive to fight the legal case, and his health probably could not have taken it.
And now a personal note: I met Mr. Victor in the waiting room of doctor who specialized in Pulmonary Medicine. He was there for his annual checkup for his Tuberculosis. I had been coughing up blood for some weeks. What I saw, sitting there, was an older man, thin, of middle height, wearing a leather flying jacket with a sheepskin collar, reading a magazine. I noticed his jacket, and, excusing myself to him, asked him if his jacket was a B-3 Jacket, which was the type worn by U.S. bomber crews during WW2.
He said, no, it was an RAF Irwin jacket. ( These were worn by Spitfire pilots in WW2 ) He had a slight British accent, and I asked him if he had served in the RAF ? He sat for a moment, silent, and then said, ' No, I flew in a war you never heard of. It was called the Spanish Civil War...."
All I knew about the Spanish Civil War was that the Russians had sent a fighter called the Polikarpov Mosca, which I had built a plastic model of many years before. So I asked, "Did you fly Moscas? "
He looked at me with great surprise, and said, " Yes, but only briefly. I mainly flew a plane called the Chato. " We exchanged names, and I told him I was very interested in talking to him about his flying experiences.
At that moment, he was called in for his visit with the doctor, and I sat, waiting. I then went in for my own, very quick appointment, and when I came out, waited for a few minutes, hoping that he would come out. When he did, he was seemed surprised to see me still there, but I told him I was very interested in talking to him. I gave him one of my business cards, with my home phone number written on the back. We shook hands, and I went back to work.
About two weeks later, on Saturday Morning, my phone rang. The voice at the other end introduced himself, and we began to talk. The call lasted for over an hour, and at then end of it, I arranged to drive up to South San Francisco were he lived. This was the first of a number of meetings, including one where I took him flying and showed him the aircraft I had purchased. ( a single seat Pitts Special )
Our flight together, in a Citabria, was a lot of fun. He took the controls right after take-off, and, if he hadn't been flying in some 40 years, you could not tell. He flew with perfect coordination, and made a wing-over into a diving half loop that was smooth and crisp. As he pulled out of it, he looked over his shoulder back at me, and said, " Oops! Should I have done that?" I told him probably not, as we weren't wearing parachutes, and he started to laugh. It was the sort of moment that only pilots can really appreciate.
Now, as to his recollections of the I-153 - Below is a photo of the I-153 at Musee de L'Aire. Note how the cowling tapers, that is, it is of reduced diameter as you move aft. Note the photo in the my previous posting. It is a different cowling. Mr Victor described an aircraft he had flown, which was one of the pre-production aircraft. Mr. Ironmachine, I don't know how old you are, but in the 1970s, that sort of detailed information about 1930s Soviet aircraft was just not available.
There was a thing called the Iron Curtain. Perhaps you may have heard of it, if not, you will find it mentioned in some of the history books.....
Mr. Ironmachine, there is a principal in logic called Occam's Razor. It says, if you have two theories, the simpler theory is usually the correct one. One theory is that a footloose, adventurous Anglo American went to fight for adventure and gold, and the other theory is that he concocted a story, obtained lots of evidence in the form of photos, logbooks, artifacts, etc, to back it up, and then kept it a secret for most of his life.
You are entitled to your own opinion.
Respectfully ;
Paul R. Ward
[img]
- I-153 Nose
- I-153 Nose.png (153.42 KiB) Viewed 1816 times
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !
-
Ironmachine
- Member
- Posts: 5822
- Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
- Location: Spain
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
Yes, he could have been lying. Yes, perhaps he had found a way to get photos of himself (if it was really him in the photos) with other pilots in front of an I-15, or perhaps he was not a pilot but a visitor. Perhaps he could have gotten hold of a pre SCW spanish parachute; after all, he had gotten hold of a RAF Irwin jacket without having being in the RAF. And what you tell us are far from being "facts"; they are your version of his words. As I said previously, there are a number of details in his story that are quite strange.paulrward wrote:Perhaps he could have been lying. Perhaps he had found a way to get photos of himself with other pilots in front of an I-15. Perhaps he could have gotten hold of a pre SCW spanish parachute. But here are a few more facts
Regarding all the suspicious points that I noted in my previous point, your last post had not cleared anything. You have really only added some details about how he reached Spain and was put in a fighter cockpit in a record time. Well, you began your "explanation" with some false information. You claim that:
That is not true. The pilots did not all turned traitor and joined the "Fascists". While it is truth that the proportion of pilots who rebelled was higher than in other officer scales of the Arma de Aviación (and consequently the proportion of officers of the "noble" class that were not pilots and remained loyal to the "government" was higher than in the pilots' case), the best calculations I have seen put the number of pilots (including those of the Aviación Naval) available for each side at the onset of the conflict as about 215 loyalists and 174 rebels. Still, you are right that there was a need for more pilots, but the whole affair regarding Mr. Victor seems just too easy. With the Alzamiento taking place on 17-18 July, he is recruited by Spanish agents, travels from Great Britain to Spain, pass his flying test and is already flying combat services in August. Possible, yes, but however... The rest of his story is full of similar, unclear points as I noted in my previous post.paulrward wrote:In 1936, when the fighting broke out in Spain, most of the aircraft in the Spanish Air Force remained in the hands of the Republicans, while the pilots, who were mainly officers of the 'noble' class, turned traiter and joined the Fascists.
You claim that the reason for "him not being in Google, or anywhere much else" is that what Mr. Victor was doing was illegal. Well, it was equally illegal for many other foreing "volunteer" pilots and their names and exploits are well known and can be found in the internet. You say that "What he had done was illegal, and, the United States Government made it VERY hard on those Americans who went to Spain to fight for the Republicans"; still, he retained all his personal items that linked him to that illegal adventure, and kept them through his journey through four countries (France, Great Britain, Canada and the United States) and made them cross the border into the United States. Quite puzzling!
But the main problem is that even if what he did was illegal in the U.S.A. or in Great Britain, it was not illegal in Spain. While he fought in the SCW, he was registered, paid and served, and a full paper trail of documents about him should be available in Spanish archives. However, I can't find anything about him in Spanish sources. It's possible that he was still telling the truth, but the lack of independent documentary evidence available is quite singular.
Anyway, he could be telling the truth. Or he can be saying just half-truths about his experience in the SCW. Or he could be just plainly lying. I don't really mind about his personal story. It's the part about the I-153 that really interests me. And then, the matter gets really interesting.
You said that he stated that "his" I-153 was different from that preserved at the Musee de L'Aire, because in that last one "the cowling tapers, that is, it is of reduced diameter as you move aft". You claim that he described the cowling of "his" I-153 as "it as more cylindrical, and not teardrop shaped like the Musee de L'Aire machine". From that, and with the help of a picture of a protoype that you posted, you claim that Mr. Victor's I-153 "was one of the pre-production aircraft". The enigma is nicely solved.
Only that it isn't solved. First, in your picture of the prototype, given the angle of the plane with respect to the camera and the small tappering that the cowl could present, I find it impossible to see how the cowling is different to that of the "Frech" example. But still it could be. Well, the problem is that if you go to http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i153.html you will find this drawing of the first prototype:
- i153-c1.jpg (29.95 KiB) Viewed 1806 times
- i153-2.jpg (48.15 KiB) Viewed 1806 times
Additionally, if you take a look at the Polikarpov Fighters in Action (Part 1) book, you can see pictures of a TsKB-3ter prototype and a pre-production I-153. In both planes "the cowling tapers, that is, it is of reduced diameter as you move aft".
So if Mr. Victor claimed to have flown in a I-153 with a cylindrical cowling, he was not only talking about a plane that apparently was not there really, but also about a plane that apparently did not exist!
You say:
Please, don't mistake the information you had with the information that was available. After all, it was you who at that time only knew about the SCW "that the Russians had sent a fighter called the Polikarpov Mosca", but be sure that there was much more information freely available if you knew where to look for it.paulrward wrote:Mr. Ironmachine, I don't know how old you are, but in the 1970s, that sort of detailed information about 1930s Soviet aircraft was just not available.
There was a thing called the Iron Curtain. Perhaps you may have heard of it, if not, you will find it mentioned in some of the history books....
It seems that Mr. Victor did know about the I-153, but his knowledge was not necessarily from a personal, "flew it" experience. Many details appear to be wrong, and the devil is in the details. I have already pointed some of the inconsistencies in his story in my previous post, and none of them have been clarified. As proof of the presence of the I-153 in Spain during the SCW, his story has no value at all.
Ah yes, the good old Occam's Razor, so much (ab)used and so little understood. Look, the problem is that we do not have just two possibilites here. Do you want a third theory? Well, there is no Mr. Victor and you have made up the whole story. Now, let's begin by saying that I do not believe this is the case here. But as far as theories go, this one fits perfectly well with the data available, explains the holes and inconsistencies far better that the two you presented, and is by far the simplest of the three. So should we take it as the correct one, just because you are misusing Occam's Razor?paulrward wrote:Mr. Ironmachine, there is a principal in logic called Occam's Razor. It says, if you have two theories, the simpler theory is usually the correct one. One theory is that a footloose, adventurous Anglo American went to fight for adventure and gold, and the other theory is that he concocted a story, obtained lots of evidence in the form of photos, logbooks, artifacts, etc, to back it up, and then kept it a secret for most of his life.
What if I show you another two theories? The first theory is that the I-153 did fly in Spain, but after about seventy five years of the end of the SCW no document has appeared proving its presence in the Spanish skies, nobody (and per Mr. Victor's tale, there should be plenty of witnesses: two whole "escuadrillas" plus some Soviets mechanics, at least) had come out supporting the story with a reliable testimony, and the one man who talked about it remained silent about it for forty years until he decided to tell his story to a man whom he had just met. The second theory is that there were no I-153s flying in Spain during the SCW. Now, please, Mr. Ward, decide which one is the simpler theory and apply Occam's Razor.
Regards.
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
Hello Mr. Ironmachine ;
We both know that the I-152 ( I-15 bis ) fought in Spain. I would like you to give me the Soviet serial numbers of the airframes and the engines of all 31 I-152s that reached Spain, along with the squadrons they flew in, and the names of ALL of the republican pilots who flew them.
If you can provide me with that detailed a level of information from your undoubted complete access to the complete archives of the Spanish Republican Air Force, then you are certainly entitled to doubt Mr. Victor's story.
Respectfully ;
Paul R. Ward
We both know that the I-152 ( I-15 bis ) fought in Spain. I would like you to give me the Soviet serial numbers of the airframes and the engines of all 31 I-152s that reached Spain, along with the squadrons they flew in, and the names of ALL of the republican pilots who flew them.
If you can provide me with that detailed a level of information from your undoubted complete access to the complete archives of the Spanish Republican Air Force, then you are certainly entitled to doubt Mr. Victor's story.
Respectfully ;
Paul R. Ward
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !
-
Ironmachine
- Member
- Posts: 5822
- Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
- Location: Spain
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
Oh my goodness! It seems that we are reaching new levels of nonsense here, Mr. Ward.
First, I am certainly entitled to doubt Mr. Victor's story now, and to keep doubting it until a reasonable proof is presented. You have not provided it.
Second, you told the story, the burden of proof is on you.
Third, I have never claimed to have "undoubted complete access to the complete archives of the Spanish Republican Air Force". In fact, I have already stated in this thread that "I'm not an expert in the field of republican pilots of the SCW".
Fourth, how would the data about the I-152 proof in any way Mr. Victor's story, if he didn't claim to have flown one of those? Your original statement was:
Fifth, why don't you try to find a picture of the I-153 with a cylindrical, not-teardrop-shaped cowling? Surely it would not be enough to demonstrate that the plane was in Spain, but it would be a first step to confirm the veracity of Mr. Victor's story.
Sixth, don't take it personally. It's Mr. Victor's story that I question, not yours...
First, I am certainly entitled to doubt Mr. Victor's story now, and to keep doubting it until a reasonable proof is presented. You have not provided it.
Second, you told the story, the burden of proof is on you.
Third, I have never claimed to have "undoubted complete access to the complete archives of the Spanish Republican Air Force". In fact, I have already stated in this thread that "I'm not an expert in the field of republican pilots of the SCW".
Fourth, how would the data about the I-152 proof in any way Mr. Victor's story, if he didn't claim to have flown one of those? Your original statement was:
Unless the I-152 is one of those "other types", of course, but the omission is significant. Anyway, wouldn't it be far simpler to find the Soviet serial numbers of the airframes and the engines of just the 4 I-153s that reached Spain according to Mr. Victor's tale and the names of ALL of the republican pilots who flew them? In that way, you would actually prove the presence of the I-153s (my real point of interest in Mr. Victor's story), which would not be possible just with with the data about the I-152. Anyway, this is not my task: onus probandi.Mr. Robert Victor, who flew in Spain from August 1936 until January, 1939, and who flew, among other types, Nieuport 52s, I16s, I15s, and an I153.
Fifth, why don't you try to find a picture of the I-153 with a cylindrical, not-teardrop-shaped cowling? Surely it would not be enough to demonstrate that the plane was in Spain, but it would be a first step to confirm the veracity of Mr. Victor's story.
Sixth, don't take it personally. It's Mr. Victor's story that I question, not yours...
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
The presence of I-153 in Spain is highly hypothetical according to my limited knowledge. However the diary note of Werner Mölders on 31.10.1938 tells about a "new enemy fighter" encountered in combat and considered it to have rather good performance. AFAIK, he did not refer the "new fighter" as a "Curtiss" or "Rata". It has been speculated that "the new fighter" could have been a proto of I-153. But most probably it was I-15 bis - if encountered for the first time, it could well have been a "new type" for the enemy pilots with its wing structure and some other features different to standard "Curtiss". However Mölders evaluation of a new fighter being "quite speedy" and having "excellent rate of climb" is perhaps more akin to I-153. More of this: http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations ... 3-in-spain
I wonder how much the bis-version of I-15 saw combat action in Spain, but I suppose it was minimal - my impression is that they saw very little action in Republican service and after that almost all "Superchatos" ended up to be flown to "exile" in France and/or captured by Nationalists. Are there any confirmed reports by Nationalist/Republican pilots of I-15 bis / "I-152" of taking part in air combat? Any I-15 bis having been shot down and this confirmed by wreck finding of Nationalists or loss records of Republicans? Any Republican pilots known to have made air victory claims with I-15 bis?
One thing of interest about I-15/I-15bis/I-16 in Spain: did these planes have armoured plate and self-sealing tanks during their combat service in SCW? I have read that the experiences in SCW made Soviets to equip their fighters with armoured plate and self-sealing tanks (this was noted by Finnish fighter pilots and confirmed by some wreck findings during the Soviet-Finnish Winter War 1939/1940). Maybe some Polikarpov fighters had armoured plate and self-sealing tanks already in Spain?
I guess that Fiat CR 32 had not armoured plate and not self-sealed tanks (would have added something to weight reducing agility and disliked by pilots?) - however I have read that "strong structure" made Fiat capable to withstand quite a lots of combat damage (when hit by 7,7 mm bullets in air combat).
Comparing Fiat CR 32 and Polikarpov I-15 bis I guess that they were quite equal in performance but it could be interesting to know if Nationalist (or Republican) pilots thought "Superchato" or "Supercurtiss" to be better compared to original Chato/Curtiss? Soviet pilots were not so sure of the "improvements" of I-15 bis and considered the original I-15 to be more manouverable. G.N. Zakharov in his flight test report on I-15 bis: The aircraft had become somewhat heavier, and become more stable, but through this the I-15 had lost some maneuverability.. In the I-15 I could complete a turn in 8-9 seconds, in the bis it required 11-12 seconds.
I wonder how much the bis-version of I-15 saw combat action in Spain, but I suppose it was minimal - my impression is that they saw very little action in Republican service and after that almost all "Superchatos" ended up to be flown to "exile" in France and/or captured by Nationalists. Are there any confirmed reports by Nationalist/Republican pilots of I-15 bis / "I-152" of taking part in air combat? Any I-15 bis having been shot down and this confirmed by wreck finding of Nationalists or loss records of Republicans? Any Republican pilots known to have made air victory claims with I-15 bis?
One thing of interest about I-15/I-15bis/I-16 in Spain: did these planes have armoured plate and self-sealing tanks during their combat service in SCW? I have read that the experiences in SCW made Soviets to equip their fighters with armoured plate and self-sealing tanks (this was noted by Finnish fighter pilots and confirmed by some wreck findings during the Soviet-Finnish Winter War 1939/1940). Maybe some Polikarpov fighters had armoured plate and self-sealing tanks already in Spain?
I guess that Fiat CR 32 had not armoured plate and not self-sealed tanks (would have added something to weight reducing agility and disliked by pilots?) - however I have read that "strong structure" made Fiat capable to withstand quite a lots of combat damage (when hit by 7,7 mm bullets in air combat).
Comparing Fiat CR 32 and Polikarpov I-15 bis I guess that they were quite equal in performance but it could be interesting to know if Nationalist (or Republican) pilots thought "Superchato" or "Supercurtiss" to be better compared to original Chato/Curtiss? Soviet pilots were not so sure of the "improvements" of I-15 bis and considered the original I-15 to be more manouverable. G.N. Zakharov in his flight test report on I-15 bis: The aircraft had become somewhat heavier, and become more stable, but through this the I-15 had lost some maneuverability.. In the I-15 I could complete a turn in 8-9 seconds, in the bis it required 11-12 seconds.
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Ironmachine
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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
Not highly, but completely. AFAIK there is no reliable evidence of any kind of its presence in Spain.durb wrote:The presence of I-153 in Spain is highly hypothetical according to my limited knowledge.
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
The I-153 issue resolved (not having been in Spain) I think that it is better to focus on I-15 bis and wonder if it was the "new enemy fighter" encountered by Mölders and his comrades on 31.10.1938. The I-15 bis was not much in Spain but probably it took part in few air combats. I wonder if there are any specialised articles or other sources to be found about the shortlived service of "Superchato" in Republican Air Force?
Perhaps a bit off topic, but Chinese pilots considered Fiat CR 32 to have "great agility" and it was liked by experienced pilots. There were not many Fiats in China, but one example remained in frontline service up to early 1938 and took part in several air combats. In skilled hands the Fiat could survive in air combat against "more advanced" Japanese A5M Claude fighter (Cheung 2015: Aces of the Republic of China Air Force). This could be taken as a confirmation of the favourable evaluation of Chirri by Italian and Nationalist Spanish pilots.
Of the loss records of Fiat CR 32, I-15 and I-16 I have following info:
Fiat CR 32 - 118 lost to all causes according to Alfredo Loguloso (??), but according to Mikhail Maslov as many as 175 were lost and of these 99 in combat (73 combat losses by Italian units and 26 combat losses by Spanish Nationalist units). Ferdinando Pedriali and some other Italian authors are somewhere between these figures giving 156 losses to all causes, of which 94 were combat losses and of latter losses 76 were in air combat (and big majority of air combat losses were due to I-15´s and I-16´s). As many as 50 Chirris were rebuilt from the wreckages and parts of written off planes. At the end of war there were 225 Fiat CR 32´s operational for Nationalist. According to Loguloso as many as 477 (?) Fiat fighters were delivered to Spain during the SCW and so about half of this number were in operational condition when the SCW ended. According to some other authors the numbers of delivered Fiats to SCW were around 370 - 400.
I-15 - according to Maslov as many as 197 were lost to all causes by 1.1.1939 - of these losses 67 were by accidents, 27 destroyed on the ground, 9 shot down by AA fire, 6 captured after force-landing in enemy territory and 88 were shot down in air combat. There were some more air combat losses suffered by Republican Chato units during the very last months of SCW but probably they were not many. It seems that the last planes shot down in SCW were "Chatos" - the last recorded air victory claim by Legion Condor (J/88) was a "Curtiss" shot down on 6.3.1939 by von Bonin and the very last air victories of SCW were recorded on 9.3.1939 by Spanish Nationalist pilots flying Fiat CR 32 and claiming five "Curtiss" (García Gomez credited with two and Frutos, Manrique and Alcocer claiming each one). I wonder which were the last air victories recorded by the Republican side? When the war finished, Nationalists captured 44 "Chatos" according J. Salas Larrazábal. That would mean that only some 12 - 16 % of Chatos survived from the war (estimates of delivered Chatos to Republican Air Force are from 276 to 368!).
I-16 - according to Maslov 187 were lost by 1.4.1939. Of these 62 lost in accidents, 1 lost to AA fire, 11 destroyed on the ground, 1 force-landed to enemy territory (and IIRC, at least one was captured almost intact by Nationalist during the Asturias campaign 1937), 11 were destroyed on the ground and as many as 112 shot down in air combat. This probably makes the I-16 the "most shot down" plane in air combat during the SCW and the survival rate of Republican pilots with I-16 in air combat was probably less than with I-15! According to J. Salas Larrazábal only 22 Ratas were captured by Nationalists when the war ended. That would mean that only some 8 % of Moscas survived from the war (estimates of delivered Moscas to Republican Air Force being around 275 - 285).
The differences between recorded losses and delivered numbers of planes to both air forces may need some further research (and the delivery numbers of I-15´s and Fiat CR 32´s to SCW do vary a lot depending on researcher and sources). For example if we take the numbers of Maslov: about 280 I-16´s shipped to Spain, 187 recorded losses by all causes by the Republicans and in the end only 22 captured by Nationalists. What happened to about 70 "disappeared" I-16´s which were not recorded as losses by Republicans - were these lost because they were torpedoed/bombed to the bottom of sea in lost ship deliveries and were there many written offs by "other causes" than accidents and enemy action - like planes being "too tired" after much operational use or written off due to simple lack of spare parts? How many planes were destroyed by the Republicans themselves in order to prevent them to fall in Nationalist hands?
Of the "kill/loss" - records between Fiat CR 32 and I-15/I-16 it is probably impossible to build up correct data to make any far reaching conclusions. More I-15´s and I-16´s were shot down in air combat than Fiat CR 32´s but one should take in account also the claims of Legion Condor. My very rough guess is that the overall air victory statistics would be about 3:1 in favour of Nationalists/Legion Condor if one tries to eliminate the usual overclaims of both sides, but that is just a guess.
There were periods of practically total sky domination by Nationalists, thanks largely to Fiat CR 32 - for example Italian and Spanish Fiat CR 32 pilots have been credited with the verified "kill/loss" rate of 15:1 between August - October 1936 (45 Republican aircraft were destroyed in air combat against Fiat CR 32´s according to Republican loss records whereas Nationalist fighter units lost only 3 Fiat CR 32 in air combat during those early months of SCW - Loguloso).
Perhaps a bit off topic, but Chinese pilots considered Fiat CR 32 to have "great agility" and it was liked by experienced pilots. There were not many Fiats in China, but one example remained in frontline service up to early 1938 and took part in several air combats. In skilled hands the Fiat could survive in air combat against "more advanced" Japanese A5M Claude fighter (Cheung 2015: Aces of the Republic of China Air Force). This could be taken as a confirmation of the favourable evaluation of Chirri by Italian and Nationalist Spanish pilots.
Of the loss records of Fiat CR 32, I-15 and I-16 I have following info:
Fiat CR 32 - 118 lost to all causes according to Alfredo Loguloso (??), but according to Mikhail Maslov as many as 175 were lost and of these 99 in combat (73 combat losses by Italian units and 26 combat losses by Spanish Nationalist units). Ferdinando Pedriali and some other Italian authors are somewhere between these figures giving 156 losses to all causes, of which 94 were combat losses and of latter losses 76 were in air combat (and big majority of air combat losses were due to I-15´s and I-16´s). As many as 50 Chirris were rebuilt from the wreckages and parts of written off planes. At the end of war there were 225 Fiat CR 32´s operational for Nationalist. According to Loguloso as many as 477 (?) Fiat fighters were delivered to Spain during the SCW and so about half of this number were in operational condition when the SCW ended. According to some other authors the numbers of delivered Fiats to SCW were around 370 - 400.
I-15 - according to Maslov as many as 197 were lost to all causes by 1.1.1939 - of these losses 67 were by accidents, 27 destroyed on the ground, 9 shot down by AA fire, 6 captured after force-landing in enemy territory and 88 were shot down in air combat. There were some more air combat losses suffered by Republican Chato units during the very last months of SCW but probably they were not many. It seems that the last planes shot down in SCW were "Chatos" - the last recorded air victory claim by Legion Condor (J/88) was a "Curtiss" shot down on 6.3.1939 by von Bonin and the very last air victories of SCW were recorded on 9.3.1939 by Spanish Nationalist pilots flying Fiat CR 32 and claiming five "Curtiss" (García Gomez credited with two and Frutos, Manrique and Alcocer claiming each one). I wonder which were the last air victories recorded by the Republican side? When the war finished, Nationalists captured 44 "Chatos" according J. Salas Larrazábal. That would mean that only some 12 - 16 % of Chatos survived from the war (estimates of delivered Chatos to Republican Air Force are from 276 to 368!).
I-16 - according to Maslov 187 were lost by 1.4.1939. Of these 62 lost in accidents, 1 lost to AA fire, 11 destroyed on the ground, 1 force-landed to enemy territory (and IIRC, at least one was captured almost intact by Nationalist during the Asturias campaign 1937), 11 were destroyed on the ground and as many as 112 shot down in air combat. This probably makes the I-16 the "most shot down" plane in air combat during the SCW and the survival rate of Republican pilots with I-16 in air combat was probably less than with I-15! According to J. Salas Larrazábal only 22 Ratas were captured by Nationalists when the war ended. That would mean that only some 8 % of Moscas survived from the war (estimates of delivered Moscas to Republican Air Force being around 275 - 285).
The differences between recorded losses and delivered numbers of planes to both air forces may need some further research (and the delivery numbers of I-15´s and Fiat CR 32´s to SCW do vary a lot depending on researcher and sources). For example if we take the numbers of Maslov: about 280 I-16´s shipped to Spain, 187 recorded losses by all causes by the Republicans and in the end only 22 captured by Nationalists. What happened to about 70 "disappeared" I-16´s which were not recorded as losses by Republicans - were these lost because they were torpedoed/bombed to the bottom of sea in lost ship deliveries and were there many written offs by "other causes" than accidents and enemy action - like planes being "too tired" after much operational use or written off due to simple lack of spare parts? How many planes were destroyed by the Republicans themselves in order to prevent them to fall in Nationalist hands?
Of the "kill/loss" - records between Fiat CR 32 and I-15/I-16 it is probably impossible to build up correct data to make any far reaching conclusions. More I-15´s and I-16´s were shot down in air combat than Fiat CR 32´s but one should take in account also the claims of Legion Condor. My very rough guess is that the overall air victory statistics would be about 3:1 in favour of Nationalists/Legion Condor if one tries to eliminate the usual overclaims of both sides, but that is just a guess.
There were periods of practically total sky domination by Nationalists, thanks largely to Fiat CR 32 - for example Italian and Spanish Fiat CR 32 pilots have been credited with the verified "kill/loss" rate of 15:1 between August - October 1936 (45 Republican aircraft were destroyed in air combat against Fiat CR 32´s according to Republican loss records whereas Nationalist fighter units lost only 3 Fiat CR 32 in air combat during those early months of SCW - Loguloso).
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Ironmachine
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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
(estimates of delivered Chatos to Republican Air Force are from 276 to 368!)
If Maslov giving the number of Soviet planes shipped to Spain or the number of planes actually received by the Aviación republicana? One should expect a difference between both. Also, in the case of the I-15, it should be remembered that a significant number of them were produced in Spain. I have seem higher numbers than those you posted ("estimates of delivered Chatos to Republican Air Force are from 276 to 368!"), as high as about 400 I-15s.
As for
If Maslov giving the number of Soviet planes shipped to Spain or the number of planes actually received by the Aviación republicana? One should expect a difference between both. Also, in the case of the I-15, it should be remembered that a significant number of them were produced in Spain. I have seem higher numbers than those you posted ("estimates of delivered Chatos to Republican Air Force are from 276 to 368!"), as high as about 400 I-15s.
As for
There was a period, and it was that one, but it was not as much thanks to the CR 32 as it was due to the the opposing aircraft, which were greatly inferior planes of a previous generation. As soon as the I-15s and I-16s arrived the situation changed, and those same Italians of the 15:1 rate were refusing to escort bombers into enemy air space in early 1937.There were periods of practically total sky domination by Nationalists, thanks largely to Fiat CR 32 - for example Italian and Spanish Fiat CR 32 pilots have been credited with the verified "kill/loss" rate of 15:1 between August - October 1936
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
Hello,paulrward wrote:Hello Mr. Ironmachine ;
We both know that the I-152 ( I-15 bis ) fought in Spain. I would like you to give me the Soviet serial numbers of the airframes and the engines of all 31 I-152s that reached Spain, along with the squadrons they flew in, and the names of ALL of the republican pilots who flew them.
If you can provide me with that detailed a level of information from your undoubted complete access to the complete archives of the Spanish Republican Air Force, then you are certainly entitled to doubt Mr. Victor's story.
Respectfully ;
Paul R. Ward
First and foremost, it would be hard to give you serial numbers of 31 I-152 since only 21 of them have reached Spain, from soviet accounts.
Then, let's speak the leading Polikarpov's planes specialist M Maslov:
Неоднократные высказывания в ряде западных публикаций об использовании И-153 в боях Гражданской войны в Испании (1936 - 1939 гг.) являются явным недоразумением. Вспомним, что первый опытный И-153 начал испытываться в августе - сентябре 1938 г. Наличие в этой машине недостатков, присущих опытным образцам, задержало ее доводку до зимы. В начале 1939 г. испытания второго опытного И-153 (№ 6005) продолжили в Баку - там же чуть позже проходили испытания "Чаек" войсковой серии. Поставки же советской военной техники в Испанию закончились еще в конце 1938 г., а в марте 1939 г. Испанская республика уже перестала существовать. Именно в это время велись доводочные работы и устранение недостатков на самолетах И-153 войсковой серии. Таким образом, испытания И-153 до марта 1939 г. не завершились, и отправка хотя бы одного экземпляра этого самолета в Испанию представляется невозможной.
Or
Repeated statements in some Western publications on the use of I-153 in the battles of the Civil War in Spain (1936 - 1939) are a clear misunderstanding. Remember that the first prototype I-153 began to fly in August - September 1938. The presence in this machine of defects usual for a prototype delayed its trials finishing not before winter. At the beginning of 1939, second prototype test-153 (№ 6005) continued (tests) in Baku - there later were tested other "Gulls" from the military series. Deliveries of the Soviet military equipment to Spain have ended at the end of 1938, and in March 1939, the Spanish Republic has ceased to exist. It was at this time that were during works and remediation of shortcomings in airplanes-153 military series. Thus, the I-153 tests were not ended in March 1939, and sending at least one example of this plane to Spain seems impossible.
Moreover, it's undifficult to verify that all I-153 from small experimental serie stayed in USSR, since only 18 of them were assembled in the first 6 months of 1936 (6-7 before april1939).
This should put and end to the unnecessary controversy.
Regards
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
The numbers of operational Chatos involved in SCW seem to differ a lot of according to author. Of the Soviet-manufactured Chatos Maslov states that 131 were shipped to Spain but he does not clearly tell if all of these machines ("CC-series") did enter to active service in Republican Air Force. All authors agree that the majority of Chatos involved in SCW were built and assembled in Spain ("CA-series")- but there seems to be different opinions how many "CA-series" planes were built estimates varying somewhere between 215 - 400 (?). There are different estimates how many of "CA-series" actually ended up to be complete aircraft delivered to Republican Air Force and how many were just incomplete airframes without engines and other equipment which would have made them operational. What was the highest number of "CC-series" Chato and the highest number of "CA-series" Chato known to be operational? Probably there were as many as 362 Chatos operational during the whole SCW - the last of CC-series being "CC-131" and last of completed CA-series plane being "CA-231"? The number of Chatos in SCW has been discussed at another thread of this forum: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=213170
As Maslov says it is difficult to determine how many Chatos took part in SCW and how many of them were lost in combat. Republicans did destroy some of their planes when retreating. I guess that Republicans also destroyed some of the documentation of their air force during the final days of war and thus some of their combat records and aircraft info may have been permanently lost.
It is true that the early success of Fiat CR 32 and Heinkel 51 pilots was mainly because the opposition was composed by obsolete Nieuport 52, Breguet 19, Potez 540 and other similar stuff. "On the paper" Dewoitine 372 and Loire 46 fighters should have been equal to Fiat and better than Heinkel but even these more advanced French fighters did achieve little - not just because there were too few of them but also the combat record was bad: during Sept.-Oct. 1936 Fiat pilots destroyed a dozen of these machines without losses of their own (Loguloso).
The Polikarpovs and better trained enemy pilots did make the air combat more equal and this was first a shock for Italians and Germans who were used to achieve easy air victories with very minimal losses. However they managed to struggle against Polikarpovs with relatively few combat losses and the air superiority of Republicans during late 1936/spring 1937 was just a temporary phase. Usually the Nationalist side had the upper hand in air when it concentrated it fighter forces to achieve local air superiority during important campaigns - North campaign 1937, Aragon offensive 1938, Ebro campaign 1938 and the final months of SCW were examples of clear Nationalist supremacy in air. The actual "kill/loss" -stats of both sides may be discutible but most of the time they probably were favourable to Nationalists/Italians/Legion Condor.
I have not found any details of Italian pilots refusing to escort bombers into enemy´s airspace because of being afraid of Polikarpovs. The Spanish Nationalist historians have blamed the Italian fighter commander Tarcisio Fagnani for being too cautious and making his pilots to avoid fight against Polikarpovs but were the Italian pilots accused of cowardice? To my knowlegde that was not the case. When it comes to Fagnani, his reaction (or those of his superiors) reflected the first shock when the airwar was not anymore a nice "game hunting" for the fighters of Nationalist side. Once overcoming the shock effect and accepting the fact that some combat losses were inevitable the situation was more or less settled. The big air battle of 18.2.1937 over Jarama has been considered already a turning point with García Morato "forcing" the Italians to take on superior number of Ratas and Chatos. Although both sides claimed a victory of the combat with the usual overclaims it seems that Fiat CR 32 pilots were indeed victorious causing six losses to Republicans with the price of having only two Fiats damaged.
The moral boost of this single air battle must have been considerable and it surely made Italian and Spanish Nationalist pilots confident of their chances with Fiat CR 32 against Polikarpovs. Italian and Spanish Nationalist pilots claimed together 7 "confirmed" Ratas and 5 confirmed Curtiss and to add to this remarkable score there were yet some "probables". The real air victory results of 18.2.1937 air battle over Jarama appear to have been 5 I-15 and 1 I-16 destroyed (as confirmed by Republican loss records). Also Republicans may have been confident with their Polikarpovs after this battle as they claimed 7 Fiats destroyed in the combat (although none was lost).
Fiat CR 32 was equal to I-15 but technically it was in some aspects clearly inferior to I-16 (much less speed). Still some verified combat records (based on loss records of both sides) show that well-piloted Fiat was able to hold its own against "Rata" and shoot the latter down. I guess that the I-16 pilots did not use the right tactics proper for their faster plane ("hit and run") but let themselves too often to be tied in turning fight with slower biplanes. That gave away the speed advantage and made it much more equal for Fiats.
As Maslov says it is difficult to determine how many Chatos took part in SCW and how many of them were lost in combat. Republicans did destroy some of their planes when retreating. I guess that Republicans also destroyed some of the documentation of their air force during the final days of war and thus some of their combat records and aircraft info may have been permanently lost.
It is true that the early success of Fiat CR 32 and Heinkel 51 pilots was mainly because the opposition was composed by obsolete Nieuport 52, Breguet 19, Potez 540 and other similar stuff. "On the paper" Dewoitine 372 and Loire 46 fighters should have been equal to Fiat and better than Heinkel but even these more advanced French fighters did achieve little - not just because there were too few of them but also the combat record was bad: during Sept.-Oct. 1936 Fiat pilots destroyed a dozen of these machines without losses of their own (Loguloso).
The Polikarpovs and better trained enemy pilots did make the air combat more equal and this was first a shock for Italians and Germans who were used to achieve easy air victories with very minimal losses. However they managed to struggle against Polikarpovs with relatively few combat losses and the air superiority of Republicans during late 1936/spring 1937 was just a temporary phase. Usually the Nationalist side had the upper hand in air when it concentrated it fighter forces to achieve local air superiority during important campaigns - North campaign 1937, Aragon offensive 1938, Ebro campaign 1938 and the final months of SCW were examples of clear Nationalist supremacy in air. The actual "kill/loss" -stats of both sides may be discutible but most of the time they probably were favourable to Nationalists/Italians/Legion Condor.
I have not found any details of Italian pilots refusing to escort bombers into enemy´s airspace because of being afraid of Polikarpovs. The Spanish Nationalist historians have blamed the Italian fighter commander Tarcisio Fagnani for being too cautious and making his pilots to avoid fight against Polikarpovs but were the Italian pilots accused of cowardice? To my knowlegde that was not the case. When it comes to Fagnani, his reaction (or those of his superiors) reflected the first shock when the airwar was not anymore a nice "game hunting" for the fighters of Nationalist side. Once overcoming the shock effect and accepting the fact that some combat losses were inevitable the situation was more or less settled. The big air battle of 18.2.1937 over Jarama has been considered already a turning point with García Morato "forcing" the Italians to take on superior number of Ratas and Chatos. Although both sides claimed a victory of the combat with the usual overclaims it seems that Fiat CR 32 pilots were indeed victorious causing six losses to Republicans with the price of having only two Fiats damaged.
The moral boost of this single air battle must have been considerable and it surely made Italian and Spanish Nationalist pilots confident of their chances with Fiat CR 32 against Polikarpovs. Italian and Spanish Nationalist pilots claimed together 7 "confirmed" Ratas and 5 confirmed Curtiss and to add to this remarkable score there were yet some "probables". The real air victory results of 18.2.1937 air battle over Jarama appear to have been 5 I-15 and 1 I-16 destroyed (as confirmed by Republican loss records). Also Republicans may have been confident with their Polikarpovs after this battle as they claimed 7 Fiats destroyed in the combat (although none was lost).
Fiat CR 32 was equal to I-15 but technically it was in some aspects clearly inferior to I-16 (much less speed). Still some verified combat records (based on loss records of both sides) show that well-piloted Fiat was able to hold its own against "Rata" and shoot the latter down. I guess that the I-16 pilots did not use the right tactics proper for their faster plane ("hit and run") but let themselves too often to be tied in turning fight with slower biplanes. That gave away the speed advantage and made it much more equal for Fiats.
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Ironmachine
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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
However, Spanish sources usually state that there were 30-31 the I-152s that reached Spain, with 29 returning to France after the fall of Cataluña.VG 33 wrote:First and foremost, it would be hard to give you serial numbers of 31 I-152 since only 21 of them have reached Spain, from soviet accounts.
Probably because no one had ever said that they were afraid of Polikarpovs; certainly, I have not said such thing. The point I was making was that the "happy times" of 15:1 "kill/loss" rate had ended because there were now real fighters to oppose them. In numerical inferiority and against planes of similar (if not better) quality, the Italian pilots were ordered to fight only if they had the most advantageous conditions. Escorting planes that were going to bomb Madrid, were the Republican fighters were waiting for them, precluded such conditions.durb wrote:I have not found any details of Italian pilots refusing to escort bombers into enemy´s airspace because of being afraid of Polikarpovs.
Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16
Didn't he? So reminds the question what can they do with fighter planes in war...Of the Soviet-manufactured Chatos Maslov states that 131 were shipped to Spain but he does not clearly tell if all of these machines ("CC-series") did enter to active service in Republican Air Force.
I can help, from soviet account on 08/07/1937 for instance, but there a lot of them.
So for the I-15:
On line (airworthy): 29
In factory repair : 15
In France : 4
Lost (all kind of reasons) : 35
Disabled (spare parts) : 08
Sent to Northern Front (from central Spain) : 25
It makes 116, no? Add the 15 I-15 from the Tourjansky squadron directly shipped to Bilbao in november 1936 it makes the 131 number.
I don't see any mystery about soviet made chato's use, in Spain.
Have you got such complete balance for german or italian planes?
Regards