Aircraft losses database/list? (Naval Anti-aircraft fire)

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lupodimare89
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Aircraft losses database/list? (Naval Anti-aircraft fire)

Post by lupodimare89 » 31 Oct 2018 11:01

Greetings, I am not an expert of the Spanish Civil War and was curious if exist somewhere on the internet some kind of list-database of air losses of all sides during the conflict.

Personally I am interested especially about seaplanes and naval related accidents like the possibility of planes of both sides being shot down by anti-aircraft naval fire from warships or armed transports.

So far I read only a single rumored loss:
Durante mucho tiempo se creyó que fue su defensa antiaérea la que el 20 de abril de 1937 derribó al Polikarpov I-15 «Chato» pilado Felipe del Río Crespo, aunque posteriormente se ha sabido que fue derribado en un combate aéreo con aviones de la Legión Cóndor.
An apparent friendly-fire incident involving Republican destroyer José Luis Díez, but apparently this was a mistaken claim

Also digging on this forum i found this other one
29.4.1937 Aviación de Baleares: Savoia S.M. 81 crashed in sea, five men crew KIA (Anfuso, Escofet, Camallo, Mattarollo, Zannoni), caused by combat damage?
Even if it is completely unspecified the cause of the crash.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Aircraft losses database/list? (Naval Anti-aircraft fire)

Post by Ironmachine » 31 Oct 2018 13:01

Greetings, I am not an expert of the Spanish Civil War and was curious if exist somewhere on the internet some kind of list-database of air losses of all sides during the conflict.
AFAIK, there is no such database.
Personally I am interested especially about seaplanes and naval related accidents like the possibility of planes of both sides being shot down by anti-aircraft naval fire from warships or armed transports.
Given the small number of planes that carried out naval operations, the small size of the fleets involved, and the not very good quality of the crews and the anti-aircraft artillery of the ships, I would say that the list is going to be very, very short.

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Re: Aircraft losses database/list? (Naval Anti-aircraft fire)

Post by lupodimare89 » 02 Nov 2018 13:35

A pity for the lack of database even if i saw people posting some lists.
Concerning the small numbers, i asked exactly because they were likely rare events, thus of quite relative interest.

I have also some other scattered hints/potential events (in addition to the two above-moentioned)

Almirante Cervera claim
During the remainder of 1937, she sank two Republican coast guard units along with a merchant ship. She also shot down a bomber aircraft that had tried to dive-bomb her three times. The cruiser played a central role in the capture of the 9,900-ton government transport Marqués de Comillas.
Republican claim, in Bilbao
El 5 de enero por la tarde, la aviación nacional efectúa un ataque a la flota que estaba amarrada en puerto, y el C-2 derribó un trimotor. A
There is some reported loss on the day?


Quite an interesting (and more realistic) Republican claim
July 30, 1937 Three Heinkel He.59 AS / 88 seaplanes of the Legion Condor south of Barcelona, ​​15 miles from Areniz de Mar, were observed from afar by a Republican convoy. The Greek steamer “Laris” marched with military cargo under the Panamanian flag and with the name “Chepo”, accompanied by the republican destroyers “Almirante Valdés”, “Escaño” and torpedo boats No. 31 and No. 41. The planes attacked the ships, achieving hits in them. In turn, one of the Heinkel He.59 aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and made an emergency landing at sea 15 miles south of Blanes. The plane and its wounded crew were saved by the cruiser “Canarias” who took him in tow and delivered to Pollensa, at 08.00 o'clock the next day. According to an official AS / 88 report, as a result of the attack, the merchant ship Chepo got into the stern, 4 sailors died on it, and he ran aground near Calella where he was hit by a 250-kilogram bomb four days later. The destroyer Almirante Valdés had a damaged nose, and torpedo boats received even more significant damage from machine-gun fire.
Interestingly, it was the biggest incident with Soviet advisors casualties in surface action of the conflict.
motor torpedo boat No. 31 suffered damages with 1 Spaniard KIA, 3 Soviets WIA and 1 Spaniard WIA
motor torpedo boat No. 41 grounded and lost after heavy damages but less casualties (only 2 Spaniards WIA).
Also the Soviets quite neatly describe the AA fire from the MTB as ineffective for insufficient elevation angle of the machineguns.

I found a couple of lists posted abbout the losses of He.59 seaplanes during the war (10-12 planes) but none match the entry for July 1937.
Moreover the description of the plane is more like damaged rather than shot down: more likely by “Almirante Valdés” and “Escaño”, than MTB.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Aircraft losses database/list? (Naval Anti-aircraft fire)

Post by Ironmachine » 02 Nov 2018 18:49

Republican claim, in Bilbao
El 5 de enero por la tarde, la aviación nacional efectúa un ataque a la flota que estaba amarrada en puerto, y el C-2 derribó un trimotor. A

There is some reported loss on the day?
I don't know if there was an aircraft loss reported that day, but if there was one I doubt the C-2 was the culprit. C-2 was a submarine, with not anti-aircraft guns, only a standard surface gun with no means to target an aircraft. It would have been a one-in-a-million incident.
Quite an interesting (and more realistic) Republican claim
July 30, 1937 Three Heinkel He.59 AS / 88 seaplanes of the Legion Condor south of Barcelona, ​​15 miles from Areniz de Mar, were observed from afar by a Republican convoy. The Greek steamer “Laris” marched with military cargo under the Panamanian flag and with the name “Chepo”, accompanied by the republican destroyers “Almirante Valdés”, “Escaño” and torpedo boats No. 31 and No. 41. The planes attacked the ships, achieving hits in them. In turn, one of the Heinkel He.59 aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and made an emergency landing at sea 15 miles south of Blanes. The plane and its wounded crew were saved by the cruiser “Canarias” who took him in tow and delivered to Pollensa, at 08.00 o'clock the next day. According to an official AS / 88 report, as a result of the attack, the merchant ship Chepo got into the stern, 4 sailors died on it, and he ran aground near Calella where he was hit by a 250-kilogram bomb four days later. The destroyer Almirante Valdés had a damaged nose, and torpedo boats received even more significant damage from machine-gun fire.
Interestingly, it was the biggest incident with Soviet advisors casualties in surface action of the conflict.
motor torpedo boat No. 31 suffered damages with 1 Spaniard KIA, 3 Soviets WIA and 1 Spaniard WIA
motor torpedo boat No. 41 grounded and lost after heavy damages but less casualties (only 2 Spaniards WIA).
Also the Soviets quite neatly describe the AA fire from the MTB as ineffective for insufficient elevation angle of the machineguns.

I found a couple of lists posted abbout the losses of He.59 seaplanes during the war (10-12 planes) but none match the entry for July 1937.
Moreover the description of the plane is more like damaged rather than shot down: more likely by “Almirante Valdés” and “Escaño”, than MTB.
Yes, a He-59 was damaged in that action and had to land on the sea. But as the aircraft was recovered and repaired, it is not considered a loss, and that is the reason the incident is not included in the lists of He-59 losses.
AFAIK, the He-59 shot down by AAA in the SCW were hit by land-based artillery. No losses to anti-aircraft naval fire.

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Re: Aircraft losses database/list? (Naval Anti-aircraft fire)

Post by lupodimare89 » 03 Nov 2018 11:23

I don't know if there was an aircraft loss reported that day, but if there was one I doubt the C-2 was the culprit. C-2 was a submarine, with not anti-aircraft guns, only a standard surface gun with no means to target an aircraft. It would have been a one-in-a-million incident.
I agree
Yes, a He-59 was damaged in that action and had to land on the sea. But as the aircraft was recovered and repaired, it is not considered a loss, and that is the reason the incident is not included in the lists of He-59 losses.
AFAIK, the He-59 shot down by AAA in the SCW were hit by land-based artillery. No losses to anti-aircraft naval fire.
Still a quite interesting case considering so far it's the closest thing and the involvment of Soviet crewmemeber and Tupolev G.5 boat

It is known the name of German pilot? In ww2 the Luftwaffe (being quite precise) made nead description of combat damage with " % " of damage, could be interesting to know of a similar case occurred here too.

What do you know of Spanish destroyer AA fire capabilites?
I am wondering if despite the Soviet description, it was the motor torpedo boats defensive fire that hit the plane or if it exists some official claim by Almirante Valdés & Escaño. If i am correct, both Spanish ship possessed a single 76mm AA gun

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Re: Aircraft losses database/list? (Naval Anti-aircraft fire)

Post by Ironmachine » 03 Nov 2018 18:32

Ironmachine wrote:C-2 was a submarine, with not anti-aircraft guns, only a standard surface gun with no means to target an aircraft. It would have been a one-in-a-million incident.
I made a mistake. The gun in the C-2 was a Vickers 76,2/45, the same model that was used in the Churruca-class destroyers as anti-aircraft gun. But I don't think the mount in the sub could achieve a high angle of fire, and I doubt there was any control system for anti-aircraft fire in the C-2. It would still be a one-in-a-million incident to shot down a trimotor bomber (though bizarrer incidents apparently happened in the SCW).
lupodimare89 wrote:
Yes, a He-59 was damaged in that action and had to land on the sea. But as the aircraft was recovered and repaired, it is not considered a loss, and that is the reason the incident is not included in the lists of He-59 losses.
AFAIK, the He-59 shot down by AAA in the SCW were hit by land-based artillery. No losses to anti-aircraft naval fire.
Still a quite interesting case considering so far it's the closest thing and the involvment of Soviet crewmemeber and Tupolev G.5 boat

It is known the name of German pilot?
AFAIK, the pilot was captain Hans Hefele.

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Re: Aircraft losses database/list? (Naval Anti-aircraft fire)

Post by Ironmachine » 03 Nov 2018 18:49

lupodimare89 wrote:What do you know of Spanish destroyer AA fire capabilites?
I am wondering if despite the Soviet description, it was the motor torpedo boats defensive fire that hit the plane or if it exists some official claim by Almirante Valdés & Escaño. If i am correct, both Spanish ship possessed a single 76mm AA gun
The anti-aircraft artillery was a 76mm gun, yes, when they were built. But the anti-aircraft artillery was reinforced during the war. IINW, on 30 July 1937 both Almirante Valdés and Escaño had, in addition to the 76,2mm gun, an anti-aircraft Hotchkiss 13,2mm twin mount.

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