Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

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rcocean
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Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by rcocean » 25 Aug 2019 18:56

At looking at various sources I've come up with the following:

Aircraft Bombers and Fighters

USSR Provided 450 fighters
USSR provided 200 Bombers

Italy - 400 Fighters, 200 Bombers.
Germany - 120 Fighters, 150 Bombers & Ju-87.

All Soviet Fighters superior To German/Italian fighters except for ME-109 of which 60 were sent to Spain.


Tanks and Tankettes
USSR provided 330 BT-5 and T-26's all with 45 mm and about 10 tons.

Germany provided 120 PK I - 5 tons - 2 machine guns
Italy Provided 400 "Tankettes": 3 Tons - 2 Machine guns - no turret.

German/Italian AFV's were useless against Soviet tanks. Soviet tanks could destroy enemy tanks at 500 yards.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by Ironmachine » 25 Aug 2019 20:32

Aircraft Bombers and Fighters

USSR Provided 450 fighters
USSR provided 200 Bombers

Italy - 400 Fighters, 200 Bombers.
Germany - 120 Fighters, 150 Bombers & Ju-87.
The numbers for the Soviets are more or less correct, but it should be noted that about 237 additional I-15 were built in Spain.
Italian numbers are also more or less correct.
The German numbers are too low; there were about 261 fighters and about 200 bombers.
The situation is more complex if we consider "asalto" planes.
All Soviet Fighters superior To German/Italian fighters except for ME-109 of which 60 were sent to Spain.
That's questionable. First, there were about 140 Bf-109 fighters in Spain (from all models A, B, C, D and E). Second, the He-112 (though it only served in the last months of the war) was surely superior to at least some of the Soviet models. And third, it is questionable that the CR-32 was inferior to the I-15; that would depend on a lot of details.
Tanks and Tankettes
USSR provided 330 BT-5 and T-26's all with 45 mm and about 10 tons.

Germany provided 120 PK I - 5 tons - 2 machine guns
Italy Provided 400 "Tankettes": 3 Tons - 2 Machine guns - no turret.
Correct for the USSR (281 T-26 and 50 BT-5) and for Germany.
Not correct for Italy: only about 150 tankettes (and some were of the flamethrower version, with no machine-guns).
German/Italian AFV's were useless against Soviet tanks. Soviet tanks could destroy enemy tanks at 500 yards.
Yes, and many Soviet armoured cars were also gun-armed and able to destroy National tanks from a safe distance. The only National tank that had some kind of long-ranged anti-tank capacity was the "Breda" version of the Pz-I, but this vehicle was just a footnote in the SCW.

haxtur
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by haxtur » 28 Aug 2019 14:53

In the book Legión Cóndor. La historia olvidada of authors Molina and Manrique, Quirón Ediciones, 2000; quoting german documents, only the Legión Cóndor used in the war 610 planes.

4 Arado 68
3 Arado 95
32 Dornier 17
6 Fieseler 156
25 Heinkel 45
20 Heinkel 46
1 Heinkel 50
93 Heinkel 51
27 Heinkel 59 (flying boat)
7 Heinkel 60 (flying boat)
28 Heinkel 70
97 Heinkel 111
1 Heinkel 112
2 Heinkel 115
18 Henschel 123
8 Henschel 126
6 Junkers W34
67 Junkers 52
5 Junkers 86
12 Junkers 87
4 Kl 32
5 Me 108
139 Me 109
Total 610
These planes used for the Legión Cóndor, the books don't count planes delivered to the spanish air force during the war.
After the war, in may 1939, 123 planes belonging to Legión Cóndor were delivered to spanish air force.
The book have indexes in spanish and german from original documents. The book belongs to the collection La máquina y la historia, book number 23.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by Ironmachine » 29 Aug 2019 06:56

haxtur wrote:In the book Legión Cóndor. La historia olvidada of authors Molina and Manrique, Quirón Ediciones, 2000; quoting german documents, only the Legión Cóndor used in the war 610 planes.
Of course; if we talk about the total number of planes (instead of only fighters and bombers as rcocean did), the total goes up not only for the Germans, but also for the Italians. And as I told before, the count is quite complex with planes like the He-51: the first examples arrived in Spain as fighters, then it was relegated to "assault" (kind of close support) and more of them were sent for that role, so how should it be counted: as a fighter, as a bomber, as something else?
And then, there were U.S. planes, French planes, Czech planes, planes built in Spain, planes sent that did not arrive in Spain...

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Ironmachine
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by Ironmachine » 29 Aug 2019 16:03

The most up-to-dates figures are probably those given in Importación de armas en la Guerra Civil Española, by authors Molina and Permuy, Galland Books, 2017.
In the main categories (and regarding the main countries of origin of the planes), the numbers presented in the book for the whole war are:
Soviets
Fighters: 437
Bombers: 155 (including Polikarpov R-5 and RZ)
Italians
Fighters: 388
Bombers: 186
Recon + assault: 107
Germans
Fighters: 261
Bombers: 174
Recon + assault: 135
Dive bombers: 31

It goes into further detail giving numbers per model and per period of arrival.

rcocean
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by rcocean » 29 Aug 2019 22:07

Thanks for the information. I'll look for that book. As you say, its more complicated than it originally looks!

haxtur
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by haxtur » 31 Aug 2019 14:58

I'm agree, the issue of the numbers is difficult, but the count must be about ALL types of planes used, including transport, reco, light planes etc. An air force needs all types, not only fighters and bombers, all are necessary for combat purposes.

In the book of Molina, El legado de Sigfrido, AF editores, 2005, give a total of 297 anti aircraft pieces of artillery. In detail:
88 mm guns, 79
75 mm guns, 90
37 mm guns, 12
20 mm guns, 116

Field guns 152
150 mm guns, 4
105 mm guns, 4
105 mm howitzers, 4
77 mm guns FK 16, 36
77 mm guns C96 na, 104

Coastal artillery, 12

Anti tank, 302

Naval artillery, 75

Total artillery pieces all types; 838

Tanks
Pzkw IA 97
Pzkw IB 20
Pzkw IB Befehl 4
Training 1
Total 122 tanks
I think this book is right in general because it is support in a very commendable investigation.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by Ironmachine » 01 Sep 2019 08:35

haxtur wrote:I'm agree, the issue of the numbers is difficult, but the count must be about ALL types of planes used, including transport, reco, light planes etc. An air force needs all types, not only fighters and bombers, all are necessary for combat purposes.
Then, the count must be about ALL types of planes AND FROM ALL countries of origin, including those built in Spain. And even then you are not going to get the whole picture; for example, school planes are not needed if pilots are trained abroad.
haxtur wrote:In the book of Molina, El legado de Sigfrido, AF editores, 2005,
[...]
I think this book is right in general because it is support in a very commendable investigation
I agree that El legado de Sigfrido is a very good book. Importación de armas en la Guerra Civil Española, from the same autor and much more recent, basically agrees with those number.I should also point out that:
- the "Coastal artillery, 12" were 150mm guns
- the "Naval artillery, 75" were 8 x 105mm anti-aircraft guns, 22 x 88mm anti-aircraft guns, 2 x 88mm guns, and 43 x 20mm anti-aircraft guns.
- 80 x 76,5mm Erdhardt mine-throwers were also sent to Spain.
For the tanks, there are some very small differences, as in this latest books Molina says they were 96 Pzkw IA , 21 Pzkw IB and 4 Pzkw IB Befehl (the training panzer is not included, surely because it was not a combat vehicle.

rcocean
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by rcocean » 01 Sep 2019 17:38

Ultimately, the only planes that matter are combat planes. The other types can be useful and increase the effectiveness of the combat planes they are only an additive.

And it depends on what you're trying to do in the air and what the situation is. Training planes are unnecessary if your pilots are trained foreigners or your own pilots are being trained in foreign countries or you just decide to train directly on Combat planes. Transports were useful for Franco's forces in 1936, but what use would they have been to the Loyalist side in 1937? Italy and Germany provided a lot of Seaplanes, but what use were they? And why did the Loyalist side need them?

The Nationalists didn't win the war in the air because they had Transports, Seaplanes and Trainers. Again, it all depends on the actual situation, making generalized statements or talking in hypothetical is useless.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by Ironmachine » 02 Sep 2019 07:15

rcocean wrote:Ultimately, the only planes that matter are combat planes. The other types can be useful and increase the effectiveness of the combat planes they are only an additive.
Your fist sentence reminds me of "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics". :)
On the other hand, an argument must be coherent, and yours is not: If other types can be useful and increase the effectiveness of the combat planes, they certainly matter; thus, combat planes are not the only planes that matter.
rcocean wrote:Transports were useful for Franco's forces in 1936, but what use would they have been to the Loyalist side in 1937?
For transportation, of course. Of goods and men.
rcocean wrote:Italy and Germany provided a lot of Seaplanes, but what use were they? And why did the Loyalist side need them?
They were in fact very useful; they were used for enforcing the blockade of the Republican harbors, and for attacking Republican ships, for example. Now, it can be argued that this could have been done with land-based aircraft, but the seaplanes actually helped with the lack of land bases available. In fact, many of them were just combat (bomber) planes with a different landing gears and so, per your own words, they mattered. The Republicans could have used them in similar ways.
rcocean wrote:The Nationalists didn't win the war in the air because they had Transports, Seaplanes and Trainers.
The Nationals did not win the war just because they had transports, seaplanes and trainers. But transports, seaplanes and trainers did their share to win the war.

haxtur
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Re: Summary Number Foreign A/C and Tanks Provided

Post by haxtur » 07 Sep 2019 11:50

I'm agree with you Ironmachine, only wanted to extend the information, not mend anybody. I don't agree with Rcocean, in the real war is very important all services: logistics, medical, communications... Whitout all the no combat services any army can fight.

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