Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

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JAG13
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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by JAG13 » 20 Sep 2019 16:09

pugsville wrote:
20 Sep 2019 15:56
JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 14:50
This is what the Germans thought of Franco's demands:

fgfg.png
whats the book. If you going to post fragments citing the book would be nice.
The aforementioned Germany and the Second World War, Vol III.

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JAG13
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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by JAG13 » 20 Sep 2019 16:12

I must apologize, it wasnt all of Algeria, just the Oran area. I used to be able to quote from memory without problems.

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by DrG » 20 Sep 2019 16:56

JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 01:41
DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 01:29
JAG13 wrote:
19 Sep 2019 20:20
Lol! Ok, if it is so far fetched it would be simple and quick to demonstrate just that, otherwise is just barking.
If you were able to understand the explanation you wouldn't even have written your childish proposal of a sortie through the Gibraltar Strait: you are just an ignorant and rude troll and I won't waste my time with you. Please leave this thread and return to your mental masturbations in the "What if" section of the forum.
Lol! You have been rude from the start and now you are wailing about rudeness without ever providing a single argument on the discussion, you are the ignorant tool here, although an entertaining one... go on.
I started being rude when you told me I was "barking" as if I were a dog.

Anyway, returning to your initial proposal about a passage through the Gibraltar strait, two considerations that maybe even you might understand:
1) A fleet is much more a menace when it's in the sea and not in its base: the absence of the British fleet would have made any breakthrough even more dangerous, not less.
2) The mere presence of a smokescreen is a proof of the presence of an enemy fleet.

Have you understood why your proposal was utter nonsense, now?

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by DrG » 20 Sep 2019 17:17

JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 14:15
Hi Sid.

Hitler blocked Mussolini from asking too much too soon for fear of the French continuing to fight from their colonies with their fleet, however, the shopping list passed to the Germans included:

Nice
Corsica
Malta
Tunez
Algeria(half)
Corfu, Ciamuria...

Protectorates or military bases/occupation over all the French and British possessions in the middle east, too long for a detailed list, plus Egypt, Kenya, Sudan, Uganda.

All that for stabbing France in the back at the last minute...
Completely false, as usual for your assertions.

On 18 June 1940 Mussolini proposed to Hitler that the Italian occupation zone in continental France as far as the Rhone river, plus Corsica, Tunisia and Gibuti. Hitler not only accepted this proposal, but enlarged it to the Saone river (gen. Roatta proposed the railroad Chambéry-Culoz-Dijon as a demarcation line between the German and Italian zones and it was accepted by the Germans) and added that France should be deprived of a Mediterranean coast and thus added to the Italian zone a coastal area as far as the Spanish border. Again, the precise line was proposed by gen. Roatta along the line Avignon-Nimes-Perpignan, accepted by Hitler.

Then, on 23 June 1940, when the Italian delegation led by Marshal Badoglio was going to meet the French one, Mussolini changed his mind and ordered to request only the occupation of the territories already held by Italian troops, nothing more. The reason is unknown (if only Mussolini's diaries hadn't "disappeared", Victor Emanuel III's memoirs hadn't been burned by his heirs and French President Lebrun's letters to him hadn't been stolen shortly after the death of Humbert II...), but probably Mussolini didn't want to be blamed for a French refusal to sign the armistice, which would have invalidated also the one with Germany.

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JAG13
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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by JAG13 » 20 Sep 2019 17:22

DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 16:56
JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 01:41
DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 01:29
JAG13 wrote:
19 Sep 2019 20:20
Lol! Ok, if it is so far fetched it would be simple and quick to demonstrate just that, otherwise is just barking.
If you were able to understand the explanation you wouldn't even have written your childish proposal of a sortie through the Gibraltar Strait: you are just an ignorant and rude troll and I won't waste my time with you. Please leave this thread and return to your mental masturbations in the "What if" section of the forum.
Lol! You have been rude from the start and now you are wailing about rudeness without ever providing a single argument on the discussion, you are the ignorant tool here, although an entertaining one... go on.
I started being rude when you told me I was "barking" as if I were a dog.

Anyway, returning to your initial proposal about a passage through the Gibraltar strait, two considerations that maybe even you might understand:
1) A fleet is much more a menace when it's in the sea and not in its base: the absence of the British fleet would have made any breakthrough even more dangerous, not less.
2) The mere presence of a smokescreen is a proof of the presence of an enemy fleet.

Have you understood why your proposal was utter nonsense, now?
LOL! As if qualifying someones position as "utter nonsense" is not rude by itself and then you added that I couldnt even understand... congratulations on that level of hypocrisy! :thumbsup:

1) The RN complained constantly on being shadowed by Spanish aircraft, they couldnt do anything about it, the info was of course passed to the Axis regularly, same for the ships in Gibraltar.

But I understand why the RM was scared of the few Force H ships...

2) The smoke screen is to be used once the ships are discovered, which they of course will be.

Let me know if you have any other utter nonsense you need to be corrected about...

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JAG13
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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by JAG13 » 20 Sep 2019 17:27

DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 17:17
JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 14:15
Hi Sid.

Hitler blocked Mussolini from asking too much too soon for fear of the French continuing to fight from their colonies with their fleet, however, the shopping list passed to the Germans included:

Nice
Corsica
Malta
Tunez
Algeria(half)
Corfu, Ciamuria...

Protectorates or military bases/occupation over all the French and British possessions in the middle east, too long for a detailed list, plus Egypt, Kenya, Sudan, Uganda.

All that for stabbing France in the back at the last minute...
Completely false, as usual for your assertions.

On 18 June 1940 Mussolini proposed to Hitler that the Italian occupation zone in continental France as far as the Rhone river, plus Corsica, Tunisia and Gibuti. Hitler not only accepted this proposal, but enlarged it to the Saone river (gen. Roatta proposed the railroad Chambéry-Culoz-Dijon as a demarcation line between the German and Italian zones and it was accepted by the Germans) and added that France should be deprived of a Mediterranean coast and thus added to the Italian zone a coastal area as far as the Spanish border. Again, the precise line was proposed by gen. Roatta along the line Avignon-Nimes-Perpignan, accepted by Hitler.

Then, on 23 June 1940, when the Italian delegation led by Marshal Badoglio was going to meet the French one, Mussolini changed his mind and ordered to request only the occupation of the territories already held by Italian troops, nothing more. The reason is unknown (if only Mussolini's diaries hadn't "disappeared", Victor Emanuel III's memoirs hadn't been burned by his heirs and French President Lebrun's letters to him hadn't been stolen shortly after the death of Humbert II...), but probably Mussolini didn't want to be blamed for a French refusal to sign the armistice, which would have invalidated also the one with Germany.
LOL! I thought you were going to ignore me!!! :lol:

Ok, to the utter nonsense then...

These demands were presented to Hitler in writing on July 7th by Ciano, to which he added Kenya and Uganda on the spot, verbally, he did so in the presence of the translator, Schmidt.

"Hitler & Mussolini", pp 132.

Better luck with your lies next time... :wink:

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by JAG13 » 20 Sep 2019 17:32

Ironmachine wrote:
20 Sep 2019 12:51
JAG13 wrote:Military and economic needs, yes, logical after such a destructive civil war, the territorial ones were a different matter and way beyond any possible Spanish contribution.
Whether the territorial ones were beyond any possible Spanish contribution is a matter of opinion. Spain may have contributed far more than Vichy France, but Hitler valued more Vichy France satisfaction.
The French fleet... that plus the bases Vichy could offer.
JAG13 wrote:IIRC Canaris had advised Franco to request large caliber guns in order to sabotage the negotiations too.
Anyway, the request was completely rational and justified considering the state of the Spanish artillery.
Not if canaris made it to sabotage negotiations, and Spain could have diverted 38cm guns from Cartagena for example to the Canarias.

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by DrG » 20 Sep 2019 17:47

JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 17:27
DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 17:17
JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 14:15
Hi Sid.

Hitler blocked Mussolini from asking too much too soon for fear of the French continuing to fight from their colonies with their fleet, however, the shopping list passed to the Germans included:

Nice
Corsica
Malta
Tunez
Algeria(half)
Corfu, Ciamuria...

Protectorates or military bases/occupation over all the French and British possessions in the middle east, too long for a detailed list, plus Egypt, Kenya, Sudan, Uganda.

All that for stabbing France in the back at the last minute...
Completely false, as usual for your assertions.

On 18 June 1940 Mussolini proposed to Hitler that the Italian occupation zone in continental France as far as the Rhone river, plus Corsica, Tunisia and Gibuti. Hitler not only accepted this proposal, but enlarged it to the Saone river (gen. Roatta proposed the railroad Chambéry-Culoz-Dijon as a demarcation line between the German and Italian zones and it was accepted by the Germans) and added that France should be deprived of a Mediterranean coast and thus added to the Italian zone a coastal area as far as the Spanish border. Again, the precise line was proposed by gen. Roatta along the line Avignon-Nimes-Perpignan, accepted by Hitler.

Then, on 23 June 1940, when the Italian delegation led by Marshal Badoglio was going to meet the French one, Mussolini changed his mind and ordered to request only the occupation of the territories already held by Italian troops, nothing more. The reason is unknown (if only Mussolini's diaries hadn't "disappeared", Victor Emanuel III's memoirs hadn't been burned by his heirs and French President Lebrun's letters to him hadn't been stolen shortly after the death of Humbert II...), but probably Mussolini didn't want to be blamed for a French refusal to sign the armistice, which would have invalidated also the one with Germany.
LOL! I thought you were going to ignore me!!! :lol:

Ok, to the utter nonsense then...

These demands were presented to Hitler in writing on July 7th by Ciano, to which he added Kenya and Uganda on the spot, verbally, he did so in the presence of the translator, Schmidt.

"Hitler & Mussolini", pp 132.

Better luck with your lies next time... :wink:
Replying to Sid, you told that Mussolini asked those lands before the signature of the French armistice, while the meeting you are referring to, summarized in a very simplicistic way by Corvaja, happened later and the list regarded the territories that Italy regarded as its area of interest in case of a peace and in case that Germany had decided to take a large part of the French colonial empire. The matter is treated pretty well in De Felice's biography of Mussolini, that of course you ignore, and the relevant papers are in the Cabinet Armistice-Peace Archive, with all the details about the hypothesis of negotiations in case of a peace conference. You are dishonestly mixing facts and date for your childish agenda.

I won't let you spread bullshit in this forum just because I regard you as a troll.

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by DrG » 20 Sep 2019 17:54

JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 17:22
DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 16:56
JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 01:41
DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 01:29
JAG13 wrote:
19 Sep 2019 20:20
Lol! Ok, if it is so far fetched it would be simple and quick to demonstrate just that, otherwise is just barking.
If you were able to understand the explanation you wouldn't even have written your childish proposal of a sortie through the Gibraltar Strait: you are just an ignorant and rude troll and I won't waste my time with you. Please leave this thread and return to your mental masturbations in the "What if" section of the forum.
Lol! You have been rude from the start and now you are wailing about rudeness without ever providing a single argument on the discussion, you are the ignorant tool here, although an entertaining one... go on.
I started being rude when you told me I was "barking" as if I were a dog.

Anyway, returning to your initial proposal about a passage through the Gibraltar strait, two considerations that maybe even you might understand:
1) A fleet is much more a menace when it's in the sea and not in its base: the absence of the British fleet would have made any breakthrough even more dangerous, not less.
2) The mere presence of a smokescreen is a proof of the presence of an enemy fleet.

Have you understood why your proposal was utter nonsense, now?
LOL! As if qualifying someones position as "utter nonsense" is not rude by itself and then you added that I couldnt even understand... congratulations on that level of hypocrisy! :thumbsup:

1) The RN complained constantly on being shadowed by Spanish aircraft, they couldnt do anything about it, the info was of course passed to the Axis regularly, same for the ships in Gibraltar.

But I understand why the RM was scared of the few Force H ships...

2) The smoke screen is to be used once the ships are discovered, which they of course will be.

Let me know if you have any other utter nonsense you need to be corrected about...
OK, you breakthrough plan included the assumption that the Italian fleet would have been discovered anyway, making it even more foolish than I thought.

Returning to history and leaving aside your mental masturbations, the RM of course was not scared at all of the Force H, despite your rude and derogatory tone. Of course you are just an illitterate troll, but for the enlightenment of any other reader, there were several instances in which the Force H avoided contact with the Italian fleet during WW2. I recall for example that on 17 Nov. 1940 adm. Sommerville ordered the launch of aircrafts from the carrier Argus to Malta too early, causing the loss of almost all of them, because he had been informed by his recon planes of the presence of the Italian battleships in the Western Mediterranean. And 27 out of 28 launches of airplanes were made not only beyond the range of Italian destroyers (and thus of battleships, which steam along with their screen of destroyers), but with the escort of British battleships, in case of an attack from Italian cruisers.

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by JAG13 » 20 Sep 2019 18:43

DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 17:47

Replying to Sid, you told that Mussolini asked those lands before the signature of the French armistice, while the meeting you are referring to, summarized in a very simplicistic way by Corvaja, happened later and the list regarded the territories that Italy regarded as its area of interest in case of a peace and in case that Germany had decided to take a large part of the French colonial empire. The matter is treated pretty well in De Felice's biography of Mussolini, that of course you ignore, and the relevant papers are in the Cabinet Armistice-Peace Archive, with all the details about the hypothesis of negotiations in case of a peace conference. You are dishonestly mixing facts and date for your childish agenda.

I won't let you spread bullshit in this forum just because I regard you as a troll.
Lol! I love the sound of you tearing your hair! :lol:

Yeah, as I said Hitler stopped Musso from asking too much at the time, Hitler cut Musso off when he started to ask for ships... that was the end of it, of course Hitler threw more than one bone in Musso's direction to make him feel better, after all he refused to have Musso sitting at Compiegne with the French, a major humiliation, and made them sign a separate peace with the French who warned that since the Italians hadnt fought, they were more than willing to keep fighting since they would not suffer ignominious conditions from the backstabbing Italians.

So, when Hitler set out his lenient armistice conditions the Italians had no choice but to follow suit as Ciano records, that is why the conditions were so soft, and no one believed they deserved even that, they were there, and on a side room, simply because the Germans won...

They of course still ran around with their little piece of paper hoping Hitler would indulge their dreams and hopes...

Better luck with your lies next time... :wink:

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by JAG13 » 20 Sep 2019 18:49

DrG wrote:
20 Sep 2019 17:54

OK, you breakthrough plan included the assumption that the Italian fleet would have been discovered anyway, making it even more foolish than I thought.

Returning to history and leaving aside your mental masturbations, the RM of course was not scared at all of the Force H, despite your rude and derogatory tone. Of course you are just an illitterate troll, but for the enlightenment of any other reader, there were several instances in which the Force H avoided contact with the Italian fleet during WW2. I recall for example that on 17 Nov. 1940 adm. Sommerville ordered the launch of aircrafts from the carrier Argus to Malta too early, causing the loss of almost all of them, because he had been informed by his recon planes of the presence of the Italian battleships in the Western Mediterranean. And 27 out of 28 launches of airplanes were made not only beyond the range of Italian destroyers (and thus of battleships, which steam along with their screen of destroyers), but with the escort of British battleships, in case of an attack from Italian cruisers.
LOL!!! You are so dumb to believe a FLEET would pass a PATROLLED STRAIT UNNOTICED!!! Talk about "utter nonsense"!

Sure, after all, we all know how fearless the RM was in face of the RN... right?

And still, even after all this barking, you cant even summon an argument... it is very entertaining, I wonder if you believe you are actually fooling anyone...

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by JAG13 » 20 Sep 2019 21:47

Another interesting bit from the same book:
hjhj.png
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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Sep 2019 08:16

JAG13 wrote:
Ironmachine wrote:Military and economic needs, yes, logical after such a destructive civil war, the territorial ones were a different matter and way beyond any possible Spanish contribution.Whether the territorial ones were beyond any possible Spanish contribution is a matter of opinion. Spain may have contributed far more than Vichy France, but Hitler valued more Vichy France satisfaction
The French fleet... that plus the bases Vichy could offer.
Just the part of the French fleet that was under Vichy's control... and that was mosty in the Mediterranean, and thus of very limited value without control of Gibraltar. And anyway, the Germans could never take control of that fleet...
And about the bases, it is very questionable that they were better than the bases Spain could offer.
JAG13 wrote:
Ironmachine wrote:
JAG wrote:IIRC Canaris had advised Franco to request large caliber guns in order to sabotage the negotiations too.
Anyway, the request was completely rational and justified considering the state of the Spanish artillery.
Not if canaris made it to sabotage negotiations, and Spain could have diverted 38cm guns from Cartagena for example to the Canarias.
Sabotaging the negotiations may have been Canaris' motivation, but Franco requested large caliber guns because they were needed. The real cause of the derailing of the negotiations was Germany's inability to provide the required items, not Franco's petitions.
And about the option of moving 38 cm guns from Cartagena to Canarias, there are so many reasons for which that was not a solution to the problem that I might not know where to start:
1) Cartagena was the main base of the Spanish fleet. It does not look as a good idea to remove its most powerful artillery. As we say in Spain, that would be "desvestir a un santo para vestir a otro".
2) Maybe you can tell us how many 381mm guns were at Cartagena? Just 4. How much defense they would have provided in the Canaries? Negligible.
3) It would have taken a long time to remove the guns from Cartagena and put them in service in the Canaries. Probably longer than the time needed by the British to invade the islands.
4) Large caliber guns were not only needed in the Canaries. They were needed everywhere.
5) With or without heavy guns, the Canaries were as good as gone. They were going to be completely isolated from day one of Spain's participation in the war.

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by Berto » 21 Sep 2019 09:40

JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 15:07
Berto wrote:
20 Sep 2019 15:00
JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 04:16

Of course the Italians screwed up just like in WW1,
Wut?
They entered the war in 1915 convinced it was about to end and in order to prey on the "loser".


They entered the war in 1940 convinced it was about to end and in order to prey on the "loser".
I doubt many people were convinced the war was about to end in 1915.

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Re: Hitler's price: Gibraltar?

Post by Berto » 21 Sep 2019 10:04

JAG13 wrote:
20 Sep 2019 18:43

all he refused to have Musso sitting at Compiegne with the French
Lol, Italy never even tried to take part in the armistice of Compiegne, the armistice between Italy and France was signed in Villa Incisa but you are too ignorant to know that th :lol:

since the Italians hadnt fought,
Well I guess Menton handed over itself :lol:
they were more than willing to keep fighting since they would not suffer ignominious conditions


Tough talk when all is done, pretty easy to do.
from the backstabbing Italians.
Backstabbing? As if Italy had a duty not to attack France. I for one would use that term for someone who signs a non-aggression pact with someone else and then attacks that very country, (even utterly failing at that!) :lol:
Sure, after all, we all know how fearless the RM was in face of the RN... right?
Frankly I doubt you know anything at all :lol:

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