JAG13 wrote:Spain had an army and some weapons, lacked consumables but in top of that asked for way too much when it wouldnt be bringing much to the table.
Spain had an army and some weapons in OTL. Spain would have had an army and some weapons even in an alternative timeline where they were armed with swords and shields. In both cases, it would have been not a great idea to combat against a modern army.
And Spain was not bringing much to the table? According to your words, Spain was bringing to the table the only possible way to take Gibraltar, thus the only possible way for the Regia Marina to take part in Sea Lion, thus the (only?) possible way to have a chance of success in the invasion of England, thus the most quick and reasonable way to defeat Great Britian... Nah, Spain was not bringing much to the table.
JAG13 wrote:The time of coastal guns was long past...
Tell that to the British at Gibraltar.
Or to the Swedes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_C ... rld_War_II
After a reduction in units after the 1925 defence proposition, there was a significant expansion of all the branches of the Swedish Armed Forces. In particular, the artillery in the Coastal Artillery was modernised and new materiel made in Sweden and imported (from e.g. Czechoslovakia) were introduced. The defense line built on the coast of Skåne during World War II was called the Per Albin Line. The detachment in Gothenburg was reorganised and expanded into the Älvsborg Coastal Artillery Regiment in 1942. During World War II and onwards, about 60 coastal artillery batteries were built along the Swedish coast.
Or to the Germans in Normandy in 1944.
Or to the United States that, despite their Navy and air forces, as soon as WWII broke out began to reequip existing harbour defenses and to build new batteries (and if 381mm guns seems like too much for you, just think they were using 16-inch and 14-inch guns).
Yes, the time of coastal guns was long past... If only they'd known that at the time!
JAG13 wrote:The RN learned its lesson at Norway... it would be forced to operate under enemy air assets at Dunkirk and Crete and didnt like the experience one bit, and did ut because it had no choice.
It would not be forced to operate under enemy air assests if attacking the Canaries because there were not any enemy air assests there. The RN could have also attack most of the Spanish coast without worrying about enemy air assests due to the same reason. Only if the Germans provide airplanes.... Oh, wait, that would be asking too much and trying to sabotage the negotiations...
Ironmachine wrote:Well, perhaps you should look at how many warplanes Spain had at the time (and which models), how many were in the Canaries, how many landing fields were in the islands, how much petrol was available for the planes, how much success high altitude level bombing had against ships during World War II...
At the Islands? 2.
2 planes? 2 landing fields? 2 liters of oil? 2 successes in high altitude level bombing against moving ships?
JAG13 wrote:Few modern aircraft, among those Hs 123, Ju 87s and He 111s that could be adopted to launch torpedoes, all three far better assets than the RA or RAF had to attack ships.
Spain had no Ju 87s and only 14 x Hs 123s and about 60 x He 111s. Unless Germany provides... No, that would be asking too much and trying to sabotage the negotiations...
And any adaptation for carrying torpedoes would have to be made by the Germans. Would that be asking too much of them?
JAG13 wrote:Hitler wanted to strike a blow to force the British to negotiate, Spain's price was way too high for that as i said earlier. My point was, Spain's price would only be worth had Hitler believed BOTH on Sea Lion and the RM being trustworthy... and we know how that really was.
If Hitler was not really interested, it really doesn't matter if Spain was trying to sabotagethe negotiations or not, does it?
On the other hand, It's clear that Germany could not pay Spain's price, so Hitler's interest (or lack of it) is of no consecuence.
Ironmachine wrote:No, it was an island! Just like the Canaries! And Coastal Defence at Diego Suarez had four 305 mm guns, four 240mm guns, and four 138mm guns. Did not make the French any good.
And so high was their fighting spirit they allowed a DD and 50 men to enter the port causing the defense to collapse, so your poit is the Spanish soldiers would collapse just as easily as the mostly african troops there?
That incident happened at Antisarane, with the Britihs already on the island and having taken the town of Diego-Suarez. Destroyer incident or not, it was just a matter of time for the French to surrender. In a similar situation, with the British already on land on the Canaries (which would have been easy, given the state of the islands' defences) and with no hope at all of any help from the Peninsula, then yes, my point is that Spanish soldiers would collapse just as easily.
Ironmachine wrote:Your own source (Germany and the Second World War, Vol III) shows that Germans were not able or willing to supply even the consumable resources, so... please you.
My quote mentions most could be provided, the issue was grain and oil, which is what I said eralier, Germany imported those from the USSR and could hardly provide them.
The issue was grain and oil. Food and oil. Yes, let's go to war without food and oil, because it's just so great an idea. And do not ask for grain and oil, because you would be trying to sabotage the negotiations.
Germany can not even provide the food and oil that Spain needs, and you think that Spain asked for heavy guns to sabotage the negotiations...
JAG13 wrote:And given how little actual support Spain could provide to the war effort compared to the price, it wasnt worth it.
Given the little support Spain could provide to the war effort, it wasn't worth at any price.
Given how much burden to German war effort Spain would make, it wasn't worth at any price.
But Spain provided opportunities (be they great or small) to defeat the British, something the Germans were short of. Whether this was worth the price or not, it was for the Germans to answer. But as they could not pay the price, the question has no value.