Tank warfare in the Spanish Civil War

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
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Dr. Bob
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Postby Dr. Bob » 28 Jun 2007 20:08

Thanks again. Even more fascinating.

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Kurt_Steiner
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Postby Kurt_Steiner » 28 Jun 2007 21:53

Nucleicacidman wrote: The Verdeja was clearly superior to the T-26 in all respects, and was designed to be the 'perfect light tank'.


Of course it was beter than the T-26. The Verdeja was designed in 1940 and incorporated many lessons learnt in the SCW.

Nucleicacidman wrote:. The only other indigenous tank after that, that I'm aware of, is the Lince which was a replacement for Spain's AMX-30Es, M47Es and M48Es [M48A5] - however, it proved to be expensive and Spain opted to purchase the Leopard 2 - even though it would take about a decade to get them. .


I also remember the "Cazador", an anti tank version of the M-47E which came to nothing.

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Postby Nucleicacidman » 29 Jun 2007 04:04

Of course it was beter than the T-26. The Verdeja was designed in 1940 and incorporated many lessons learnt in the SCW.


Well, that was the point. The Verdeja was designed with the T-26 taken into consideration. The two tanks that Captain Verdeja had on hand were the T-26 and the Panzer I [not sure about the BT-5]. He had no CV.33/35s. But I digress, they were built to be superior to these tanks - that was the entire point.

The first prototype was actually tested in 1938, though. I'm not saying that it was a competitor to the T-26 at the same time of development - I just stated fact; it was better than the T-26, as it was designed to be. I actually wrote the Wikipedia article on the T-26 and got it featured [not that this is entirely relevant - just thought it was an interesting thing], but I'm sure people have changed small things and I no longer write for Wikipedia [I'm a very selfish author and I don't like people changing what I write, especially when they don't source it]. I also wrote the article for the Panzer I, and a few others, but I quit while I was writing the article for the Panzer I.

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asiaticus
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tank battle in Northern Spain.

Postby asiaticus » 29 Jun 2007 07:03

There was a battle between the Republican tanks and Italian tanks near Puerto Escudo. See here:

viewtopic.php?t=58242&highlight=concorte

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Kurt_Steiner
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Postby Kurt_Steiner » 29 Jun 2007 09:06

Nucleicacidman wrote:
Of course it was beter than the T-26. The Verdeja was designed in 1940 and incorporated many lessons learnt in the SCW.


Well, that was the point. The Verdeja was designed with the T-26 taken into consideration. The two tanks that Captain Verdeja had on hand were the T-26 and the Panzer I [not sure about the BT-5]. He had no CV.33/35s. But I digress, they were built to be superior to these tanks - that was the entire point.

The first prototype was actually tested in 1938, though. I'm not saying that it was a competitor to the T-26 at the same time of development - I just stated fact; it was better than the T-26, as it was designed to be. I actually wrote the Wikipedia article on the T-26 and got it featured [not that this is entirely relevant - just thought it was an interesting thing], but I'm sure people have changed small things and I no longer write for Wikipedia [I'm a very selfish author and I don't like people changing what I write, especially when they don't source it]. I also wrote the article for the Panzer I, and a few others, but I quit while I was writing the article for the Panzer I.


Indeed, the first prototype was tested in January, 1939. It had aa rusan gun Model 1932 -45 mm- which used the aim tools of a T-26 and two MG-13 from a Pz I), plus a Ford V8 model 48. In December 1940 it was aproved and the War Ministery asked for 1,000 units. In July'41 it was agreed that Armamento de Aviacion S.A., ADASA, would build the first 100, but nothing came of it.

There was a second versión, the Verdeja 2 , which appeared, IIRC, around 1942, which was tested in 1944. It used an engine Lincoln Zephir, a gun 45/44 modelo1939 and two Dreyse MG-13. Nothing came out of it. In 1950 there was an attempt to bring life to the proyect with a new engine, a Pegaso Z-202 but it was outclassed by then and the US tanks which came made useless the proyect.

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Postby Nucleicacidman » 29 Jun 2007 19:17

I don't get how that's relevant to what we were discussing. :P I didn't ask for the history of the tank, since I already have it!

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Kurt_Steiner
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Postby Kurt_Steiner » 30 Jun 2007 09:04

Perhaps somebody else didn't have it...

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Ironmachine
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Postby Ironmachine » 05 Jul 2007 13:04

Somewhat related with the Verdeja story, later the chassis of the Verdeja-1 was used to build the prototype of a 75mm self-propelled gun. The vehicle is still preserved. You can see a photograph here:
http://www.ejercito.mde.es/materiales/acorazadas/index.html

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asiaticus
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Batalla de Santander

Postby asiaticus » 21 Jan 2008 05:17

Batalla de Santander from the Web archive of the Guerra Civil Espanola-Orden de batalla:
website : http://web.archive.org/web/200705200252 ... m/odb_gce/

Nationalist oob and activites

http://web.archive.org/web/200702020358 ... der_en.htm

Republican oob and activities

http://web.archive.org/web/200704292236 ... er_epr.htm

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Marcus Wendel
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Re: Tank warfare in SCW

Postby Marcus Wendel » 04 Jan 2015 14:56

Illustrations on marking and camouflage from Bison decals (you can download a higher resolution version there):

15539686735_91403f8821_k.jpg

15353056089_77b0e33749_k.jpg

14918839024_98b488fdf7_k.jpg

14918836944_c06b9e93e3_k.jpg
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Marcus Wendel
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Re: Tank warfare in the Spanish Civil War

Postby Marcus Wendel » 20 Feb 2015 21:32

Attached is "The Role of Italian Armor in the Spanish Civil War" by Pierangeli Caiti and Alberto Pirella from Armor Magazine May-June 1986. Hopefully it is of interest.

Armor_Magazine_1986_May-June__sida_42_av_56_.jpg

Armor_Magazine_1986_May-June__sida_43_av_56_.jpg

Armor_Magazine_1986_May-June__sida_44_av_56_.jpg

Armor_Magazine_1986_May-June__sida_45_av_56_.jpg

Armor_Magazine_1986_May-June__sida_46_av_56_.jpg


(Back issues of the Armor Magazine can be found at http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/eARMO ... ssues.html)

/Marcus
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Ironmachine
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Re: Tank warfare in the Spanish Civil War

Postby Ironmachine » 21 Feb 2015 08:49

That article contains indeed some significant mistakes...

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Ironmachine
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Re: Tank warfare in the Spanish Civil War

Postby Ironmachine » 21 Feb 2015 09:58

Just some examples (not an exhaustive list):

through the persistent efforts of General Francisco Franco -who was by this time the undisputed leader of the Nationalists-

No, Franco was not by this time the undisputed leader of the Nationalists.

a company of 26 Lancia 17M armored cars landed at Cádiz

They were Lancia IZ and IZM, and only 16.

the Republicans placed two BT-5s along their withdrawal route as part of their rearguards, but one of these was destroyed. By 9 March, the Italians had occupied Brihuega, but on the same evening, six BT-5s set up an ambush in the outlying forest

BT-5s at Guadalajara? No way! Just T-26s.

There were numerous clashes agasinst enemy armored vehicles, among them Trubia A4s, which were built in Spain at Santander.

As the Republicans only had one A4, which fought at Oviedo and was apparently lost in combat before that date, that is simply impossible. And the A4s were not built at Santander, they were built (surprise!) at Trubia. Maybe the author means Trubia-Naval tanks, but those were not built at Santander either.

only 12 were in any kind of operating condition by 1936 -six per regiment

No, there were only five per regiment, though there could have been one or two at the Escuela de Tiro.

At Madrid, the Republicans did have six Schneider CA1 M16 tanks

This may be literally true, but they were not in good condition and not all of them were sent into combat.

as well as three Trubia A4s

No, there were four, three with the Milán regiment and one at the factory.

eight of which (all FT-17s) were in the hands of the Nationalist rebels

No, at the start of the conflict the rebels had just five FT-17s.

A company of T-26Bs was allocated to each infantry brigade and a reconnaissance section of three BA32s to each infantry division

Not even on paper, much less so in actual practice.

Its popularity was such that the Germans refitted several of their own Pzkw Is with the Breda 35

Not the Germans but the Spaniards. The Germans actually complained about the resulting vehicle.

Franco asked the Italians to manufacture a modified CV 3/35, equipped with the Breda, for the Spanish Army after the war.

No. During the war, actually at the same time that the modified Pz I was being built, a CV was equipped with the Breda. As the resulting vehicle was much inferior to the Breda Pz I, the project was cancelled.

Finally, four types of tanks were manufactured in Spain during this period.

Actually, this would be five, as the Carro de Combate de Infantería Tipo 1937 (one prototype) is not mentioned.

There was the Trubia [...] Four prototypes were built, but only six tanks were ever manufactured.

Trubia A4, only four prototypes ever built (and that before the war).

The Verdeja [...] Only about 30 were ever produced

No, just the prototype was produced. Plans for productions were never taken into practice.

The Nationalists later modified the Verdeja to serve as a self-propelled artillery piece

Later indeed, in fact after the end of the SCW.

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Marcus Wendel
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Re: Tank warfare in the Spanish Civil War

Postby Marcus Wendel » 21 Feb 2015 11:08

Repost from another thread:

Pedro Ruíz wrote:Marcus Wendel,dear friend much thanks for your information about the Italian tanks of the General Franco in the Spanish Civil War.Marcus,in Comando Supremo Forum makes some years ago,I wrote an article titled "Tanks war in the Spanish Civil War 1936-39",I put here the link:

http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/to ... r-1936-39/

I hope that it can be useful.

Best wishes

Pedro


Pedro Ruíz wrote:In Spanish language there is a wonderful book about the Italian armour in the Civil War 1936-39.This book is titled "El regreso de las legiones".

-de Mesa,José Luis; "El regreso de las legiones.(Voluntarios Italianos en la Guerra Civil Española",Edt. Hispan Editor S.L.,Granada (España),1994



/Marcus

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Marcus Wendel
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Re: Tank warfare in the Spanish Civil War

Postby Marcus Wendel » 21 Feb 2015 13:25

Attached is "The Theory and Practice of Armored Warfare in Spain" by Dr John L S Daley from Armor Magazine March-April 1999.

Part 1.

Armor_Magazine_1999_March-April__sida_32_av_64_.jpg

Armor_Magazine_1999_March-April__sida_41_av_64_.jpg

Armor_Magazine_1999_March-April__sida_42_av_64_.jpg


/Marcus
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