Liberation of Barcelona. 1939. A photo and a story.

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
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Maribel-bel
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Post by Maribel-bel » 02 Jan 2006 05:32

– “regionalism was anti-spanish” was what the Francoists believed, but indeed, in the “Spanish” Constitution of the “Spanish” Republic, regionalism was considered a particular way of been “Spanish”. Identically as it is today. To be Catalan does not mean not to be Spaniard but a different level of that, such as a Scott is British or a Bavarian is German, or a Bostonian is from the USA.
– On October-12th’36 fascist general Millán Astray cried “Death to intelligence ! ” and was replied by fascist writer José María Pemán “No , Long life to intelligence ! Death to the bad intellectuals !”. Millán Astray was NOT removed of his job.
– “A democratic elected government can be turned in a dictatorship”. Perhaps. But this was not the case of the Spanish Republic, which always was a democracy. The only dictatorship was the Franco’s one, for 40 years and hundreds of thousands of murders.
– In Barcelona on Jan-26th’39 there wasn’t any armed resistance. The morale was down and most of the defenders have left the town, escaping to France and leaving alone the civil population. Just in case, the Llobregat river is not in Barcelona, but just as its southern limits, where the airport is.
– If the Francoists found that the lady had been troskist in the past, most likely would be imprisoned again and nothing good would happen to her. This is not a generalisation, this happenned very often to Spanish troskists and anarchists that had suffered previous prison from the stalinists. Another chance might be that if they found that she was a German troskist to be handed over to the Gestapo correspondants , not for her ratial Jew origin (something that could not be found by the Francoists, and anyway was not relevant for them) but for having been a member of the German left.
– Some clarifications about Durruti, Ascaso, and Ferrer i Guardia : Their names were not removed because they were Catalans, but because they were anarchist leaders in a town where the anarchism had been the most dominant orientation of its working class along the last 30 years. In fact the only Catalan of the three was Ferrer i Guardia, but Durruti was from León, and Ascaso from Aragón. None of the three were Catalanists. Ascaso and Durruti had been anarchist fighters and certainly they murdered some people (much less than Franco, anyway) for political reasons, but not as Jack the Ripper or Al Capone. Anyway, Durruti had nothing to do with the events happenned in Barbastro because it is very wel known that he was at that time near Zaragoza about 150 Kms away. Concerning Ferrer i Guardia, today is also well known that his was a farce trial to blame him not for trying to kill Alfonso XIII in 1906 during his wedding, as Mirko said, but to blame him for the events happenned during the “Tragic Week” in 1909 when a number of popular riots and firings happened in Barcelona against the forced conscription of soldiers for the Marocco War.
– Lastly, concerning the murders of innocent people, just to say, that if Franco and his friends would have not raised up, it would not had been triggered a revolution in the republican territory, and not even one murder would had happen.

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Post by Kurt_Belarus » 02 Jan 2006 08:55

– Millán Astray WAS removed of his job. (Paul Preston 'Franco')

– Spanish Republic was NOT a democracy. Democracy does not kill people for being Catholics. Or it was some special kind of 'democracy'.

– 'In Barcelona on Jan-26th’39 there wasn’t any armed resistance.' - Source please?

– Nationalists could imprison the girl again for her past crimes. Agree. As for 'very often' - please prove it.
Also, please, prove that Nationalists handed German citizens to Germany on a regular basis.

– I've never said anything about origins of Durruti, Ascaso, and Ferrer i Guardi. I don't think it matters here.

– Innocent people were murdered and repressed even before the rebellion.

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Vulkan
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Post by Vulkan » 02 Jan 2006 11:25

Maribel-bel wrote:
– Lastly, concerning the murders of innocent people, just to say, that if Franco and his friends would have not raised up, it would not had been triggered a revolution in the republican territory, and not even one murder would had happen.


That is a somewhat inexact and rather far-fetched statement. Previous revolutionary rebellions, quite bloody actually, that took place during the early 30s, of which you are very well aware, set up a precedent that speaks aloud against your hypothesis.
Last edited by Vulkan on 02 Jan 2006 11:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Maribel-bel
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Post by Maribel-bel » 02 Jan 2006 11:31

This is very simple. Even Fascists and Franco supporters can understand it:
Franco & Friends military uprising = WAR ; Franco & Friends staying just doing their jobs = NO WAR

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Vulkan
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Post by Vulkan » 02 Jan 2006 12:16

It is not a very constructive attitude that you start by considering those who criticise the Republica being equal to Franco/Fascist supporters. It is a juvenile oversimplification and not true at all.

Maybe this should be discussed in the "What if" section, because it will be nothing but conjectures but....
You are very aware that the Segunda Republica was an extremely unstable period. The system had a lot to fear from the extreme right and the traditional oligarchies, as it turned out to be. But the extreme left was a factor to be feared no less. In this respect, you are also well aware that it was the Republican Government the one that sent the army to suppress an anti-government, revolutionary uprising in Asturias back in 1934.
So had the Alzamiento not taken place. I would not dare discarding further uprisings from the extreme left during the late 30s early 40s, whenever the occasion turned suitable. Undoubtendly, Franco & Friends were no democrats, but the anarchists and communists were far from it either.

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Alpi
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Post by Alpi » 02 Jan 2006 12:40

Hello everybody

About the cataloinan´s culture is always on mi mind a very interesting memory.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:... Franco actually tried to suppress Catalan culture. And I think it had nothing to do with public health.


Not at all, Mr. Belarus. It is a mistake, a great mistake, to accuse Franco and the Falangists of having limited the use of the language and the catalan culture. They didn´t it exactly. The limitation in use of the Catalan language was an initiative from famous catalan intellectuals. Between them it is necessary to mention to Josep Pla, Eugeni D'Ors or the brothers Nadal. I do mention these authors because they were the most important writers in Catalan language on the XXth century.

Others francoist intellectuals, as Dionisio Ridruejo or Cela (not catalans), have told many times their surprise when they received the prohibition of distributing pro-Franco propaganda written in Catalan language. Initially they had prepared this propaganda in Catalan language, but the pressures of the intellectual Catalans partial to Franco prevented its distribution and allotment. Even Josep Pla imposed himself the prohibition of writing in Catalan. A prohibition this one that he supported until 1947.

We cannot forget that many Catalans were pro-Franco. Even many catalanists supported Franco, like Cambó and his fellows.

Cordial regards for everybody, and happy new year.

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Maribel-bel
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Post by Maribel-bel » 02 Jan 2006 12:58

“So had the Alzamiento not taken place. I would not dare discarding further uprisings from the extreme left during the late 30s early 40s” . This sentence actually is the one which deserves to go into the “what if...” .
I did not raised any hipothesys. I said that the SCW was launched because of the Franco & Friends uprising. This is not a hipothesys. This is a fact. In case of not having raised, there wouldn’t happen that war. I cannot say what would happen, but not that war.
Again and again, the war started because the Franco & Friends uprising triggered a revolution in the republican territory (this is another fact) . This revolution DID NOT EXIST before that (this is another fact). And this revolution was the historical process where thousands of innocent people were murdered in the Republican territory along the first months (another fact) against the will of the Republican government and institutions who lost the actual power during such period (another fact)
By the way, the thousands of innocent people murdered in the rebel territory (another bigger fact) were not killed by any revolution, but through a systematically managed and controlled direction which lasted many years after the war was ended (another fact) .
Francoists (= Spanish Fascists) are all those who justify in any way the rebel uprising of July’36. Anyone can find whether s/he fits into the definition or not.
Last edited by Maribel-bel on 02 Jan 2006 14:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Vulkan
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Post by Vulkan » 02 Jan 2006 13:25

No one is denying your list of facts. What I was refutting was your point that "not even one murder would had happened". Many, many murders had occurred before the Alzamiento. So bearing in mind this tendency, it is not unlikely that they would have continued if the Alzamiento had not taken place. It seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that you have a somewhat compartmentalized sense of history. I personaly find it extremely difficult to disocciate what happened in 1936 from what had happened the previous years. Maybe you see in this an effort to "justify the Alzamiento". Far from it. I just strive to find an explanation to an extremely unique and complex historical scenario.

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Maribel-bel
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Post by Maribel-bel » 02 Jan 2006 13:52

What Mr. Alpi says is another of his inventions. The autonomous system acknowledged to Catalunya was totally supressed, including the use of its own language, by public decree issued by the Francoist Home Ministry (Serrano Suñer) once they reached the first major town of the region, which was Lérida on April-4th-’38.
Here is the link to the decree dated April-8th-’38.which can be read in the lower part of the page. http://www.boe.es/datos/imagenes/BOE/19 ... A06674.tif
It’s true that a large number of Catalans (and also Basques) were on Franco’s side, mainly conservatives from the “Regionalist League” ( “Lliga Regionalista” ) and traditional – carlists. Among the first of them were some writers such as Josep Pla or Eugeni d’Ors as Alpi said, but, for example, in the case of Josep Pla, the full of his works after the war is written and published in Catalan. Not even one in Spanish. And in the case of d’Ors some of them were also in Catalan.
About this topic it’s worthwhile to mention that reality was stronger than threats. Catalan spoken continued to be used, although during the first years after the war, the speakers risked to be fined or even beaten if they were listened by any fanatic. Some years after the war a few books were tolerated to be discreetly published in Catalan. This was improving along the time. I myself was born in Barcelona and I learnt together Catalan and Spanish when I was a child on the hard Franco’s times. What was totally forbidden was to use Catalan for administrative or public matters or to use Catalan christian names.

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Alpi
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Post by Alpi » 02 Jan 2006 14:55

Mis Maribel-bel:

Excuse me, but I am thinking you should study a bit more and discredit others a bit less.

Sincerely, the readers of this forum we would be grateful very much for it to you.

In the other hand, check your link because it don´t work.

You are welcome.

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Alpi
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Post by Alpi » 02 Jan 2006 15:09

Hello everybody, hi Mr. Vulkan

Vulkan wrote: I personaly find it extremely difficult to disocciate what happened in 1936 from what had happened the previous years. Maybe you see in this an effort to "justify the Alzamiento". Far from it. I just strive to find an explanation to an extremely unique and complex historical scenario.


Once again to demonstrate you my fairplay I suggest you the reading of the text of the Professor Santos Juliá "Spain without civil war: what had happened without it. Military revolt of July, 1936?"

http://utrecht.cervantes.es/Biblioteca/ ... 6202.shtml

I don´t suggest it to Mis Maribel-bel, because she could accuse me to "inventor" again.

An interesting essay about this matter.

My most cordial regards for everybody, safe the people who only know about disqualifications.
Last edited by Alpi on 02 Jan 2006 17:12, edited 1 time in total.

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 02 Jan 2006 15:17

Kurt_Belarus wrote:
Or during the whole operation.


Not according to Thomas it isn't.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:In Castellon for example.
According to Thomas, 40 were murdered. No one is saying that the Republicans did not murder political prisoners. What you always fail to mention is the far greater numbers of Republicans murdered by the Nationalists. See:

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Victimas/Repre.htm


Kurt_Belarus wrote:How many more times are we going to see generalisations such as this.


You do have a very good point there, a point that has been raised by out Moderators I have made it my New Year Resolution to be a little more specific in my replies. I hope you do so with yours in future too.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:As for my generalisation, I can prove my words with examples - see what Reds did in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lavia, Lithuania, Estonia, China or North Korea.


Of course this has got nothing at all to do with the Spainish Civil War, or the political situation in Spain during the 1930s. These are not examples which have any relevance with the topic we are discussing.


Kurt_Belarus wrote:Ronald Fraser
Blood of Spain (page 146)


Thank you. Let me just try to balance things out a little...

H Thomas, p254

..probably 2000 were shot in the first 2 weeks in the city of Cordoba, about 3,000 in Sevilla, 5,000 in Saragossa and its surroundings, 2,000 in Navarre and 2,000 in the Canary islands.

Numbers for all of Spain.....50,000 for the first 6 months of the war.

...Thirty four Popular Front members of the Cortes were shot in 1936...


and so on. If you are going to keep quoting Nationalists murdered by the Republic, at least tell both sides of the story.
Last edited by iwh on 03 Jan 2006 00:13, edited 1 time in total.

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 02 Jan 2006 15:55

Kurt_Belarus wrote:– Millán Astray WAS removed of his job. (Paul Preston 'Franco')


just for my peace of mind, could you quote from Preston the reasons why Astray was removed. Thanks.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:– Spanish Republic was NOT a democracy. Democracy does not kill people for being Catholics. Or it was some special kind of 'democracy'.


The Second Republic was indeed voted into power. It was as near to democracy as you could get in Spain at that time, I suppose. Besides, were members of the clergy murdered before or after the Uprising by Franco and his generals? And lets not go as far back as 1909.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:– 'In Barcelona on Jan-26th’39 there wasn’t any armed resistance.' - Source please?


You made the original claim that there was armed resistance in Barcelona. It is up to you to prove the claim. You used Thomas's book as source. Unforunately the source did not support your claim.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:– Innocent people were murdered and repressed even before the rebellion.


by young "pistoleros" on both sides of the political spectrum.

Paul preston, Spanish Civil War p64

The Falangist terror squads continued to work hard to create an atmosphere of disorder which would justify the imposition of an authoritarian regime.They helped to ensure the escalation of mindless violence which rendered national discussion impossible....The young activists of right and left were fighting on the streets.


The only people who felt "repressed" by the Republic, were the ones most likely to lose out after centuries of power....the landowners, industrialists, the army and the church.

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 02 Jan 2006 16:05

Vulkan wrote: In this respect, you are also well aware that it was the Republican Government the one that sent the army to suppress an anti-government, revolutionary uprising in Asturias back in 1934.


You have made a good point here Vulkan, however don't forget that the Republic of 1934 was one controlled by the political right, and not left: a republic that was about to destroy all the social reforms carried out by the previously elected Government.

Civil War was always going to happen. The right and left wing were too big and powerful to be controlled and separated by a weak centre. However in my opinion the civil war was one created by social instability, the rise of the working classes and a struggle by the "elite" to retain power, and not as some would have it, a purely religious war.

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 02 Jan 2006 16:27

Alpi wrote:Not at all, Mr. Belarus. It is a mistake, a great mistake, to accuse Franco and the Falangists of having limited the use of the language and the catalan culture. They didn´t it exactly.


I have proved otherwise with a source. Can you do the same with your claim?

Please, baring in mind the request by the moderators can we please try to back up our statements with some sort of source, otherwise our arguments just become a war of ideologies.

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