Liberation of Barcelona. 1939. A photo and a story.

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
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Alpi
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Post by Alpi » 02 Jan 2006 17:11

Hello everybody, hi Mr Iwh.

iwh wrote:I have proved otherwise with a source. Can you do the same with your claim?


Sure, I can do it as all the times.

You can find many web inti internet about it, like this

http://members.fortunecity.es/templohis ... taluna.htm

Specially this paragraph:

"Nevertheless, not everything is attributable to the fascism, when Dionysus Ridruejo, francoist General Manager of Propaganda, came to Barcelona with Falangist propaganda in Catalan, this one was confiscated."

But there are many, many web pages on internet which told that.

When somebody unknow something, it is right to asking about it, but it is wrong to discredit somebody.

My most cordial regards for everybody, safe people who only know about disqualifications.

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Vulkan
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Post by Vulkan » 02 Jan 2006 17:20

iwh wrote:
Vulkan wrote: In this respect, you are also well aware that it was the Republican Government the one that sent the army to suppress an anti-government, revolutionary uprising in Asturias back in 1934.


You have made a good point here Vulkan, however don't forget that the Republic of 1934 was one controlled by the political right, and not left: a republic that was about to destroy all the social reforms carried out by the previously elected Government.
.

I am aware, but nonetheless it was a democratically elected government, abiding by the Republican Constitution. Whether their social agenda differed from that of the previous, leftist executive does not justify a revolutionary uprising. The point that I am trying to raise, is that the extreme left was just as willing to raise against the established, democratic system just as much as the extreme right.

Civil War was always going to happen. The right and left wing were too big and powerful to be controlled and separated by a weak centre. However in my opinion the civil war was one created by social instability, the rise of the working classes and a struggle by the "elite" to retain power, and not as some would have it, a purely religious war.


I absolutely agree with you, I believe that the dices had been casted a long time before July 1936

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 02 Jan 2006 23:31

Alpi wrote:
Sure, I can do it as all the times.

You can find many web inti internet about it, like this

http://members.fortunecity.es/templohis ... taluna.htm



This page seems to be a translation from Thomas's book. I can, however find no mention of Catalan intellectuals stopping Ridruejo from distributing his propaganda. However you do state that these intellectuals were supporters of Franco, so they were all, as we say in English "in the same boat". I think it is a little unfair to put the blame for the complete restriction on Catalan culture and society on to Catalans themselves and away from Franco.


Alpi wrote: but it is wrong to discredit somebody.


It is not wrong, however to disagree.

Alpi wrote:safe people who only know about disqualifications.


Perhaps you could explain what you mean here. I have no idea!

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 03 Jan 2006 00:00

mirko wrote:When I say"public health" I am talking about removing inscriptions related to Durruti, Ascaso and Ferrer, because these guys do not deserve any kind of tribute. They were criminals.
Buenaventura Durruti was a ferocius savage anarchist who (among many other things) killed Cardinal Soldevilla in 1923. He also incite the martyrdom of the claretians of Barbastro.
Francisco Ferrer was no a teacher but an agitator. He was behind the attempt on Alfonso XIII's life in 1906.
So I say that honoring these guys is like honoring Jack the Ripper, Al Capone or Dillinger.


And you wonder why people get angry in these debates!! :?

Please keep your outbursts out of the thread, some of us are trying to have a reasonably intelligent debate here.

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 03 Jan 2006 00:16

Vulkan wrote:
I am aware, but nonetheless it was a democratically elected government, abiding by the Republican Constitution. Whether their social agenda differed from that of the previous, leftist executive does not justify a revolutionary uprising. The point that I am trying to raise, is that the extreme left was just as willing to raise against the established, democratic system just as much as the extreme right.


Thanks for the clarification. I understand what you are meaning to say now.

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Maribel-bel
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Post by Maribel-bel » 03 Jan 2006 03:31

To Mr. Alpi : The self-government of Catalunya was abolished by the decree that I pointed, dated on April-5th’38 and published on April-8th’38. It is issued by the Home Office and signed by Framco himself and the minister Serrano Suñer. It has a foreword plus two articles
1- Equalization of rights for the four provinces of Catalunya to the other provinces in Spain (= means no special rights, among them, the use of its own language).
2.- Elimination of the “Estatuto” (= Catalan Constitution) and reversal to the State of the former powers acknowledged in 1932.
Therefore, it was not something pushed by any particular writer as you said but a fully public law. When Ridruejo arrived to Barcelona on Jan’39 with the leaflets written in Catalan, they were already forbidden by this law from April’38.

To Mr. Vulkan : Certainly, it cannot be split what happenned before the war as potential reasons for this, with the war itself. The historical question is whether those were enough powerful reasons to develop a civil war or not. From my side I don’t think so. It cannot be denied that there was an important political unstability as you said, but on top of that there was enough power to control that from the democratic institutions, and there were a large bunch of not extreme politicians who would have been able to keep that under control. The uprising broke all that political mechanisms and launched a revolution in the Republican territory. That was exactly the revolution which was suppossed that it tried to prevent.

Kurt_Belarus
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Post by Kurt_Belarus » 04 Jan 2006 08:22

mirko wrote:Dear Kurt_Belarus.
You did not understand me. I agree even with iwh about Franco's reppresion of the true regionalism of Catalonia and Basques. Unfortunately National Spain's regime was stained with this centralism. I say again it was a serious mistake.
When I say"public health" I am talking about removing inscriptions related to Durruti, Ascaso and Ferrer, because these guys do not deserve any kind of tribute. They were criminals.

You are right. I've misunderstood your words. Sorry.

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Post by Kurt_Belarus » 04 Jan 2006 12:42

iwh wrote:Not according to Thomas it isn't.

Please, prove it.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:In Castellon for example.
According to Thomas, 40 were murdered.[/quote]
So what? Prisoners and hostages were also killed by Republicans in wake of retreat from San-Sebastian and Irun and other cities.

No one is saying that the Republicans did not murder political prisoners. What you always fail to mention is the far greater numbers of Republicans murdered by the Nationalists. See:
http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Victimas/Repre.htm

It's very interesting but you will see that 44.202 killed by Republicans - is a very low estimate when you consider that there were at least 6.700 priests, monks and nuns killed by them.

More than that, you should understand that Nationalists won the war, so they persecuted their political enemies on the whole territory of Spain.
Republicans were not given such an opportunity, that is why half of Spain was spared from Republican political repressions.

Of course this has got nothing at all to do with the Spainish Civil War

Just the opposite. There was a question about who was worse - Nationalists or the Reds.

and so on. If you are going to keep quoting Nationalists murdered by the Republic, at least tell both sides of the story.

I've never denied that Nationalists repressed their political rivals.

But repressions by Nationalists no way prove that Republicans were 'democrats', respested human rights or something like that.

Both sides committed crimes and were not democrats.

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 04 Jan 2006 16:39

Kurt_Belarus wrote:Please, prove it.


)n 25th January, Yague, followed by Solchaga and Gambara, crossed the Llobregat. Resistance was isolated, and without plan. By the following morning, the north and west of Barcelona had been invested. ....The streets were empty. Over 1/2 a million people had left for the north by all means possible.


The only reistance that seems to be met was minor, and seems to have taken place at the river crossing, not in Barcelona itself, where the streets were said to be empty.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:
It's very interesting but you will see that 44.202 killed by Republicans - is a very low estimate when you consider that there were at least 6.700 priests, monks and nuns killed by them.


Actually if you read the website, they claim the numbers are around 38,000 because a lot of deaths were counted more than once.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:More than that, you should understand that Nationalists won the war, so they persecuted their political enemies on the whole territory of Spain.
Republicans were not given such an opportunity, that is why half of Spain was spared from Republican political repressions.


This is a "what if" scenario. You have no way of knowing what the republicans would have done. We only know what the Nationalists actually did. They murdered at least 200,000.

Of course this has got nothing at all to do with the Spainish Civil War
Just the opposite. There was a question about who was worse - Nationalists or the Reds.


So the situation in North Korea, which was one of the countries you mentioned, gives us insights into the politics of the Spanish civil war. Please, tell us how.


Kurt_Belarus wrote:Both sides committed crimes and were not democrats.


I agree, both sides did commit terrible crimes. However, it is very difficult to be democratic in time of war.

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Alpi
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Post by Alpi » 06 Jan 2006 11:07

About Josep Pla´s works in spanish language

In this year that we will celebrate the 25th anniversary of Josep Pla's death, is important to remember some things that will not be above mentioned.

Josep Pla wrote many books directly in spanish language from 1939 to 1949. If somebody wants to know this works, can consult the web page to Foundation Pla in this link: http://biblioteca.udg.es/fons_especials ... excast.asp

I am not an specialist in the work written by Josep Pla, but if not wrong, the works which he wrote directly in spanish language were this:

OBRAS DE PLA EN ESPAÑOL

1. Historia de la Segunda República Española. Barcelona: Destino, 4 vol., 1940
2. Costa Brava (Guía general y verídica). Barcelona: Destino, Ancora y Delfín, 1941
3. El pintor Juan Serra. 25 cuadros, 25 opiniones. Barcelona: Edimar, 1941
4. Humor honesto y vago. Barcelona: Destino, Ancora y Delfín, 1942
5. Las ciudades del mar. Barcelona: Argos, 1942
6. Rusiñol y su tiempo. Barcelona: Barna, 1942
7. Viaje en autobús. Barcelona: Destino, Ancora y Delfín, 1942
8. El pintor Joaquín Mir. Barcelona: Destino, Ancora y Delfín, 1944
9. Un señor de Barcelona. Barcelona: Destino, Ser o no ser, 1945
10. La huída del tiempo. Barcelona: Destino, Ancora y Delfín, 1945
11. Viaje a pie. Barcelona: Destino, Ancora y Delfín, 1949

I expect to have mentioned all.

One of the Pla's most interesting works of written directly in Spanish language is his History of the Second Spanish Republic.

Somebody ask me for proofs about some intellectual Catalans asked Franco for the prohibition to use of the Catalan language. I recommend to all that read Pla. There are proveed it. Specially in the prologue of his History of the Second Spanish Republic.

Read Pla, please, he is an excellent author and this year we celebrate the 25th anniversary of his death.

My most cordial regards for everybody

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 06 Jan 2006 17:40

Alpi wrote:
Somebody ask me for proofs about some intellectual Catalans asked Franco for the prohibition to use of the Catalan language. I recommend to all that read Pla. There are proveed it. Specially in the prologue of his History of the Second Spanish Republic.


By all means show us the proof. The last message you wrote proves absolutely nothing. Please quote where it says that Pla requested that Franco insist on the use of castillan spanish and not Catalan. More importantly, show us anywhere where Franco actually admits to being influenced by them.

I find it amazing that you try to shift the "blame" from Franco to others in the decision to wipe the Catalan culture from the Spanish map. Surely Franco did not need to listen to anyone. He made the decisions. He takes the blame.

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Alpi
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Post by Alpi » 06 Jan 2006 22:25

Hi, Mr. Iwh.

You are so injust with me. If you If knew what has cost to me that my brother was leaving myself to touch (only touch it and in his home) Pla's text. It is a text very difficult to find and my brother possesses a copy.

I am referring to his History of the Second Spanish Republic, of course.

About your question I want to say you one of the worst policiies from Franco was his Medieval revival, his medievalism. Under the dictatorship of Franco really extravagant things were done in this direction. Under the dictatorship of Franco there were granted many titles of nobility, some so esperpentic as that of Countess of Fenosa (FENOSA is the commercial name of a company to electric power), the regional systems of Civil Law were revitalized and there were restructured the academies of the regional languages.

It is logical that persons of more liberal expositions(approaches), as Pla, were feeling slightly inconvinient with this medieval revival.

In any case Pla's attitude demonstrates in the facts that there was a local resistance in Catalonia (and also in the Basque Country) against revitalization of archaisms medievalist and his strong opposition against the linguistic disintegration.

Pla, in his mentioned History of the Second Spanish Republic gathers his discomfort for it. A discomfort that based his self prohibition to using the Catalan idiom until 1949.

My most cordial regards for everybody

Kurt_Belarus
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Post by Kurt_Belarus » 07 Jan 2006 19:23

iwh wrote:"Оn 25th January, Yague, followed by Solchaga and Gambara, crossed the Llobregat. Resistance was isolated, and without plan. By the following morning, the north and west of Barcelona had been invested."

The only reistance that seems to be met was minor, and seems to have taken place at the river crossing, not in Barcelona itself, where the streets were said to be empty.

The phrase about resistance could be also understood as saying about the whole operation on 25th and 26th January.

Anyway it changes nothing in the story.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:Actually if you read the website, they claim the numbers are around 38,000 because a lot of deaths were counted more than once.

They can claim anything they want. But I've found nothing on this site that proves their estimates.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:More than that, you should understand that Nationalists won the war, so they persecuted their political enemies on the whole territory of Spain.
Republicans were not given such an opportunity, that is why half of Spain was spared from Republican political repressions.


This is a "what if" scenario.[/quote]

No there is no 'what if'. Just plain facts -

1. Nationalists won the war, so they persecuted their political enemies on the whole territory of Spain.

2. Republicans were not given such an opportunity, that is why half of Spain was spared from Republican political repressions.

We only know what the Nationalists actually did. They murdered at least 200,000.

Prove it.

So the situation in North Korea, which was one of the countries you mentioned, gives us insights into the politics of the Spanish civil war. Please, tell us how.

There were Spanish rightists and conservatives. There were communists and anarchists.
We know what Spanish conservatives and rightists done when then won the war.
We know the scale of political repressions and murders committed by pro-Republican leftists. But leftist forces lost in the war.
There was a number of countries where leftist won - Russia, China and so on.
So we can try to compare repressions in Stalin's Russia, for ex., which was a chief ally of the Republic, with situation in Spain during Franco's rule.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:Both sides committed crimes and were not democrats.


I agree, both sides did commit terrible crimes. However, it is very difficult to be democratic in time of war.[/quote]
Agree.
So... "Both sides committed crimes and were not democrats."

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 08 Jan 2006 16:25

Kurt_Belarus wrote:The phrase about resistance could be also understood as saying about the whole operation on 25th and 26th January.


It could if you take it in isolation. However can you find any website or book on the Spanish civil war that claims:

Kurt_Belarus wrote:Nationalist troops began entering Barcelona, quickly suppressing any resistance by Republicans.


but, as you say, it changes nothing in the story.


Kurt_Belarus wrote:They can claim anything they want. But I've found nothing on this site that proves their estimates.


Well, that's all down to personal opinion.


Kurt_Belarus wrote:Prove it.


Well I have given a site that quotes a number of 140,000 victims of nationalist murders, with a probable outcome of 200,000. Hugh Thomas in 1999 quoted a probable figure of 150,000, but that does not take into account recent findings. (see web)

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Victimas/Repre.htm

However, instead of just saying "prove it", why not give your own version so that we can continue to discuss the issue. If you disagree with me, then please, feel free to do so.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:There were communists and anarchists.


There were socialists and anarchists. The Communists at the start of the war were very few. They received more political power when Russia sent military aid. By the end of the war, the communists were wiped out in Madrid by a coup d'etat.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:We know what Spanish conservatives and rightists done when then won the war.


They murdered thousands of political prisoners and repressed thousands more. There, I will say it even if you will not.


Kurt_Belarus wrote:So we can try to compare repressions in Stalin's Russia, for ex., which was a chief ally of the Republic, with situation in Spain during Franco's rule.


Except that in Stalin's Russia, no one was safe. Everyone feared for their lives. In Franco's Spain, if you were a Nationalist supporter you felt extremely safe, if a republican, you didn't. Which all means that you cannot compare the political situation in Spain in the 1930s with anywhere else in the world, certainly not Russia.

Kurt_Belarus wrote:Agree.
So... "Both sides committed crimes and were not democrats."


Yes indeed, because the extremists on both sides never gave democracy a chance. The extremists on the left wanted social justice, better education, workers rights, to be able to own land. The extreme right wanted to keep the old values and privilages. These two groups were just too big to be kept apart by a weak political centre. The result: Civil War. In my opinion, the uprising was not just about "the Reds" burning churches and victimising the catholics. The Nationalists of course, used the support of the Church to justify their cause.

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