One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
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Dan W.
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One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by Dan W. » 10 Aug 2018 04:25

http://b-29.org/MISC-files/invasion2.html

This is a fantastic perspective on just how unprepared American intelligence was regarding what would be awaiting them in "Operation Downfall", which would begin with "Operation Olympic" on Nov. 1 of 1945, landing on Kyushu, and later "Operation Coronet", bringing another island assault starting March 1, 1946. Allied intelligence greatly underestimated their foe. The invasion would very well been a painstaking, brutal and lengthy war of attrition, and many of the Allied soldiers taking part came from the European campaign. This would be entirely different scale of fighting.
The battle for Japan, itself, would be won by what General Simon Bolivar Buckner had called on Okinawa "Prairie Dog Warfare." This type of fighting was almost unknown to the ground troops in Europe and the Mediterranean. It was peculiar only to the American soldiers and marines whose responsibility it had been to fight and destroy the Japanese on islands all over the south and central Pacific. "Prairie Dog Warfare" had been the story of Tarawa, of Saipan, of Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. "Prairie Dog Warfare" was a battle for yards, feet and sometimes even inches. It was a brutal and dangerous form of combat aimed at an underground, heavily fortified, nonretreating enemy. "Prairie Dog Warfare" would be what the invasion of Japan was all about.
Initially, anyway, it was later estimated that the Japanese has a 3-2 advantage in troops, with 790,000 of mixed military background facing off against 550,000 Allied troops. There was also their air component:
The Japanese 5th Naval Air Fleet and the 6th Air Army had 58 more airfields on Korea, Western Honshu and Shikoku, which were also to be used for massive suicide attacks. Allied Intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2,500 aircraft of which they guessed only 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks. However, in August of 1945, unknown to our intelligence, the Japanese still had 5,651 Army and 7,074 Navy aircraft, for a total of 12,725 planes of all types. During July alone, 1,131 new planes were built and almost 100 new underground aircraft plants were in various stages of construction.
The link posted reveals the myriad defenses that Japan had crafted in her defense, and Allied intelligence likely had no idea of much, if not most, of these defenses. It begs the question: Would a ground assault and invasion of Japan, lacking any atomic weapons, even been successful?

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Re: One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by paulrward » 10 Aug 2018 04:37

Hello All ;

Mr. Dan W. Posted the following:
It begs the question: Would a ground assault and invasion of Japan, lacking any atomic weapons, even been successful?

Just a little factoid from a retired chemist: Almost all poison gases are heavier than air, and will fill underground tunnels, caves, and bunkers.

The best way to get rid of prairie dogs is to put a hose into the exhaust pipe of a pickup truck, and put the other end into the burrow, and then have a beer while your truck idles for about 30 minutes.

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward

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Dan W.
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Re: One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by Dan W. » 10 Aug 2018 15:48

paulrward wrote:
10 Aug 2018 04:37
Hello All ;

Mr. Dan W. Posted the following:
It begs the question: Would a ground assault and invasion of Japan, lacking any atomic weapons, even been successful?

Just a little factoid from a retired chemist: Almost all poison gases are heavier than air, and will fill underground tunnels, caves, and bunkers.

The best way to get rid of prairie dogs is to put a hose into the exhaust pipe of a pickup truck, and put the other end into the burrow, and then have a beer while your truck idles for about 30 minutes.

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
We're not talking Iwo Jima here, where there are no cities to contend with, we are talking urban warfare, and we are talking about not only multiple levels of fortifications (see link), we are talking about a civilian population that is being forced to fight, adding yet another dimension.

Chemical warfare would have had a very limited impact.

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Re: One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by OpanaPointer » 10 Aug 2018 16:06

Gen. Marshall was to be given control of ten atomic bombs, four for use on Kyushu and six for the Kanto Plain/Tokyo area. "Fighting on" could have lead to a dozen Hiroshimas (eleven Nagasakis and one Hiroshima, actually).
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Re: One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by LineDoggie » 10 Aug 2018 21:37

Dan W. wrote:
10 Aug 2018 15:48

We're not talking Iwo Jima here, where there are no cities to contend with, we are talking urban warfare, and we are talking about not only multiple levels of fortifications (see link), we are talking about a civilian population that is being forced to fight, adding yet another dimension.

Chemical warfare would have had a very limited impact.
LOL Seriously? One would think Chemical Warfare would have enormous impact on urban areas. These same areas have subway trains, underground bomb shelters, basements of buildings, Sewers and a limited amount of Gas defence masks and clothing, decon available to the CivPop ....
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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Dan W.
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Re: One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by Dan W. » 11 Aug 2018 04:22

OpanaPointer wrote:
10 Aug 2018 16:06
Gen. Marshall was to be given control of ten atomic bombs, four for use on Kyushu and six for the Kanto Plain/Tokyo area. "Fighting on" could have lead to a dozen Hiroshimas (eleven Nagasakis and one Hiroshima, actually).
The hypothetical was not having the luxury of atomic bombs, and relying solely on ground troops, naval bombardment and air support.

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Re: One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by Dan W. » 11 Aug 2018 04:27

LineDoggie wrote:
10 Aug 2018 21:37
Dan W. wrote:
10 Aug 2018 15:48

We're not talking Iwo Jima here, where there are no cities to contend with, we are talking urban warfare, and we are talking about not only multiple levels of fortifications (see link), we are talking about a civilian population that is being forced to fight, adding yet another dimension.

Chemical warfare would have had a very limited impact.
LOL Seriously? One would think Chemical Warfare would have enormous impact on urban areas. These same areas have subway trains, underground bomb shelters, basements of buildings, Sewers and a limited amount of Gas defence masks and clothing, decon available to the CivPop ....
Only one problem: U.S. troops fighting in gas masks and charcoal lined chemical suits would make an already brutal invasion even more harrowing. Perhaps you could gas everyone and bide your time after the firebombing of every major city was over, it's possible the conditions for large scale use of chemical weapons would not be as favorable as one might think. It's worth remembering that Japanese troops were more practiced in the art of chemical warfare and likely had a similar plan.

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Re: One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by Kingfish » 11 Aug 2018 19:58

Dan W. wrote:
10 Aug 2018 04:25
Initially, anyway, it was later estimated that the Japanese has a 3-2 advantage in troops, with 790,000 of mixed military background facing off against 550,000 Allied troops. There was also their air component:
The Japanese 5th Naval Air Fleet and the 6th Air Army had 58 more airfields on Korea, Western Honshu and Shikoku, which were also to be used for massive suicide attacks. Allied Intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2,500 aircraft of which they guessed only 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks. However, in August of 1945, unknown to our intelligence, the Japanese still had 5,651 Army and 7,074 Navy aircraft, for a total of 12,725 planes of all types. During July alone, 1,131 new planes were built and almost 100 new underground aircraft plants were in various stages of construction.
How much fuel was available for large scale air ops?
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
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Re: One Hundred Million Will Die for Emperor And Nation

Post by OpanaPointer » 11 Aug 2018 20:22

Skates (IIRC) give a number of five million tons (that number I'm sure of) of crude oil saved for defense against invasion.
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