Suquence of events leading to Pearl Harbor.

[Globalization41]

I agree that the Tripartite Pact did not
technically bind Hitler to a declaration of war
on America in the case of Japanese
aggression, just as Japan was not bound to
declare war on the Soviet Union in the case of
German aggression. ... If I remember my
history correctly, the Japanese Ambassador
to Germany hinted to Hitler that Japan might
soon be at war with America and Hitler hinted
that he might in that case declare war on the
U.S. The Japanese Ambassador radioed this
conversation to Tokyo in diplomatic code
which was intercepted and deciphered by U.S.
decoders. Roosevelt knew that Japan had
decided on war with the U.S., but he couldn't
have been 100% sure that Hitler would
declare war. ... Additionally, as I understand it,
a couple of days before the Japanese
declaration war, Roosevelt leaked the top
secret war plans of the U.S. as another
possible provocation aimed at Hitler. ... Had
Hitler ignored F.D.R.'s provocations and not
declared war, Congress would never have
authorized war against Germany, though
Roosevelt (obsessed with getting American
into the European war) would have tried every
trick he could have thought of.

Late Breaking War Bulletins

Globalization41

[john2]

I still think Roosevelt could have gotten the US into war. The truth is most people in the US were not isolationist. What Roosevelt said was that he would give supplies to Germany's enemies and do all means short of war to undermine Germany while the countries fighting against Hitler were to be the ones who actually defeated him. However Roosevelt believed that if the above didn't work and a German victory seemed likely that the US should then immediately intervene. Roosevelt never attempted to disguise his pro British stance and often made very vicious speeches against Hitler. Roosevelt had also in 1940/41 managed to make changes to the neutrality acts, which much of the public approved. The isolationists that most people think of are the people like Lindberg who who did not like the change in the neutrality acts and wanted to be truely isolated. Those people were actually a minority and there were signs they were already strength before the US entered the war. If in the fall of 1941 the US and Japan had actually come to some sort of agreement I see the following secnarios happening:

After Russia survives the winter Roosevelt will of course be continuing aid to Germany's enemies. There will however be some changes in the situation. First the US will be to deliver much more supplies as her armaments program will be getting under way. Second relations between Germany will be severely strained since US ships will be firing on German ships as per the order of September 11, 1940. At this point several things could happen. Hitler could decide to declare unrestricted submarine warfare which would be major step in in hieightening the tensions. I think Hitler would almost be forced to take this step as otherwise it would mean sitting back while Britain grows stronger from American supplies. If at this point the US still doesen't declare war another year more time might pass. If Russia keeps surviving like she did historically and starts to make progress wetswards then Roosevelt might convince the public to go to war to prevent a red Europe. Or Roosevelt might do nothing as I've heard he had communist sympathies. There are plenty of other alternatives as well. If the Germans win in Africa and are about to take the Suez canal Roosevelt might try that as an excuse. If Russia is defeated or comes close again to defeat that might convince people to go to war. Given the mood of the people and considering the fear of Germany that Roosevelt haf successfully instilled in them I think it quite possible Roosevelt could get them into war eventually, as for congress even they would the implications of a German dominated Europe. If, however, the most extreme case happens and the US never enters the war then I guess it would be a Nazi or Communist Europe. This last case I still consider unlikely as I can't see the US holding back from the war very long after 1941 when tensions were already strained with Germany.

[john2]

If I remember my history correctly, the Japanese Ambassador to Germany hinted to Hitler that Japan might soon be at war with America and Hitler hinted that he might in that case declare war on the U.S. The Japanese Ambassador radioed this conversation to Tokyo in diplomatic code which was intercepted and deciphered by U.S. decoders.

Thanks but what I was thinking of is a note from from a conversation between Hitler and the Japanese foreign minister, Matsuoka. The note reads:

"In the further course of the discussion the Fuehrer pointed out that Germany on her part would immediately take the consequences, if Japan would get involved with the United States. It did not matter with whom the United States would first get involved, if with Germany or with Japan. They would always try to eliminate one country at a time, not to come to an understanding with the other country subsequently, but to liquidate this one just the same. Therefore Germany would strike, as already mentioned, without delay in case of a conflict between Japan and America, because the strength of the tripartite powers lies in their joined action. Their weakness would be if they would let themselves be beaten individually."

The above is dated April 4, 1941. I got the quote from here: http://nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-01/n ... 13-10.html

Looking at the above statement it seems Hitler was willing to go to war with the US in case of a Japenese/US conflict. Unless Roosevelt found out about that conversation he still wouldn't have known though.

[ChristopherPerrien]

The truth is most people in the US were not isolationist

??????????????????????

Yes they were, only by lying to the public (about NOT going to war) did Roosevelt manage to get elected in 1940.

The only people who wanted us to go to war was minority of Ultra rich industrailists, International businessmen, and bankers, primarily to shore up their trade schemes and provide security for financial investments.
off topic: no I am not talking abou IRAQ.

If the Japanese had not attacked and Germany declared war, Roosevelt could have never got enough public support to go to war with Germany. And Hitler no matter all the intentional provocations and acts of war Roosevelt did prior to the Pearl Harbor , was not going to declare war on America because of them.

The opinion of most Americans was we had saved Europe's ass once (WWI) and lost a quite a few people, and it wasn't worth it. And we had been suckered in by a Liberal president that time too (Wilson).

You should read outside of typical official liberal media bs. Time-Life may have great photos but they were hardly unbiased.

Try reading up more on the pre-war America First movement, Lindberg or the KKK.

[john2]

Ok Christopher. If practically everyone was thinking like Lindberg how did Roosevelt get away with revising the neutrality acts and how could he speak openly about supporting Germany's enemies? The theme Roosevelt kept telling the public is that the US would not go to war BUT they would use all means SHORT of war to strengthen Hitler's enemies so they could defeat him. The public accepted this and this is different from from being isolationist. As for you comment:

You should read outside of typical official liberal media bs. Time-Life may have great photos but they were hardly unbiased. Try reading up more on the pre-war America First movement, Lindberg or the KKK.

First of all you don't know what I've read. Second of all Hitler never supported the above movements very much because they were never popular with the US public. Lindberg's speech in Des Moines towards the end of 1941 brought general anger - not applause. Finally as for yourself I asked you to provide me with more evidence to the claim that Roosevelt belived that if he foced to Japan into war that Germany would follow. You either have to prove he knew what Hitler was telling the Japanese or had somehow calculated some other way that Germany would declare war. If you can't show that evidence then you have no argument. Btw don't try to personally attack me I did not do that to you. Either show me evidence or admit you lost.

[Globalization41]

Associating the KKK with those who
advocate a foreign policy of American
noninterventionism fertilizes the ideology
of Zionism which is dedicated to
subverting U.S. neutrality.

Globalization41

[Globalization41]

Hitler made his April 1941 promise to support
Japan in a war with America because he
respected Japanese militarism. But his short-
term goal in April was to tie down Soviet Far
East Siberian divisions guarding against
Japanese expeditions. Hitler hoped that
Japan would return his commitment of mutual
assistance when the Germans launched their
summer campaign against the Soviets. ...
Hitler advocated dividing the world into
spheres of influence, i.e., Asia for Japan, the
high seas for the British Empire, the Western
Hemisphere for America, and the Ukrainian
breadbasket for Germany. ... Hitler was
uninterested in warring with Britain. He
declined to cross the 20-mile wide Channel
when Britain was ripe for the pickings and he
certainly was not inclined to send an invasion
force to New York or South America. The idea
that Hitler conspired to make war on America
is nothing more than a Zionist fantasy and
wishful thinking converted into propaganda.
Of course Hitler had contingency plans, but he
made the mistake of not bowing to Jewish
chauvinism, leading to big lies, many of which
persist even to the present. The British,
desperately needing an ally, were a little more
pragmatic. They knew that Germany could not
cross the Atlantic and invade America, so they
(instead of believing in fantasy) just flat-out lied
by planting false documents purporting to be
Nazi plans to take over the world. ...
Roosevelt strongly opposed military
aggression and imperialism, for example
Japan's invasion of China, Germany's easy
conquest of continental Europe, the Red
Army's 1939/40 incursion into Finland, and
Britain's subjugation of its Empire. He pretty
much wanted to transform the ideal of the
United States into a global utopia of the United
Nations. As events unfolded, Roosevelt
quickly forgave Stalin's invasion of Finland,
naively thinking that being nice to Stalin would
convert the Soviet dictator into a humanitarian.
When Finland joined Germany in the war
against the U.S.S.R., Roosevelt declined to
join Britain's later declaration of war on
Finland, which was nothing more than
appeasement of Stalin and timed just before
Pearl Harbor. Besides, it was well known that
Finland's war goals were nothing more than
retaking the areas annexed by Stalin during
the Winter War. ... Although Roosevelt's main
priority was entering the European war, he
refused to back off opposing Japanese
aggression, even if it meant war. Fortunately,
from F.D.R.'s viewpoint, he was able to sucker
Hitler through persistent provocations into
declaring war first. ... Had Hitler (in a grouchy
mood because of developments on the
Eastern Front) not declared war on America,
it's hard telling what Roosevelt would have
done regarding the Fuehrer. Despite a mass
media anti-Nazi propaganda campaign,
American public opinion opposed war with
Germany, given that the Nazis' main enemies
were colonialists suppressing native
populations and Bolsheviks wanting to
transfer wealth from the farmers to the
urbanites. I suspect that Roosevelt would
have eventually played the W.M.D. card.

Globalization41

[john2]

Globilization41 said:

The idea that Hitler conspired to make war on America is nothing more than a Zionist fantasy and wishful thinking converted into propaganda.

I was not saying that Hitler conspired to make war on the US. It is clear that Hitler did not want a war with the US. I see Hitler following two policies which are somewhat contradictory. On the one hand Hitler wanted to avoid war but on the other hand was thinking that because of Roosevelt a war might be inevitable. If that were the case then Hitler thought he should strike immediately and since Germany could not handle the US alone he should cooperate with Japan. Hitler wanted Japan to attack British bases in the far east, specifically Signapore. In view of Roosevelt's policy of supporting Britain and knowing the US would not like an expansion of Japanese power he was not sure if such a step would bring the US into the war or not. Hitler knew the Japanese would be hesitant to act if they did not think he would help them and hence his promise. Hitler may also have been thinking of a trade off, that is if Japan found herself at war with the US and helped by declaring war then Japan would return the favor and declare war on Russia who we know he was about to attack. I've read that in the final days before the attack on Pearl Harbor that the Japanese a new pact. This pact was a full fledged military alliance that went beyond the tripartite pact and covered the Japanese even if they were the agressors, it was signed the day before Hitler declared war. So why did Hitler declare war on the US? The best answer I can come up with is that he made a series of miscalculations. Hitler it seems thought the US was weak and would not be ready for war until about 1943-44. Also after the Japanese attacked in the Pacific Hitler thought their initial victories, particularly over Pearl Harbor, were greater then they actually were. Finally he may have hoped that by declaring war on the US the Japanese would help him with Russia. I think the Japanese actually promised this at one point. Hitler I think was also convinced that Russia would not survive another offensive in the spring (of '42) and that with Japan's help she would fall quickly. Finally last but not least there was the war in the Atlantic. It may have been thought the US would divert most of their ships to the Pacific to go against Japan making it easy for him to attack and cut off Britain's suplly line. It wasn't until later that Hitler realized he had made a blunder. The Japanese did not declare war on Russia, the US managed to build enough ships so she didn't have to make diversions to the Pacific, and he failed to knock out Russia in '42. By 1943 Russia was still in the war and growing stronger, the US had held out and was growing stronger, Britain was growing stronger from American supplies. So it clear Germany had lost and could only hope for a stalemate. So what should Hitler have done? Would just sitting back and letting Japan and the US fight it out have worked? My belief is that the US would have entered the war in Europe at some point anyway but who can tell? Over all I don't think Hitler could still have won the war as it seems Russia was capable of beating Germany by herself. Perhaps then we would have had a communist Europe.

[Globalization41]

John2. "I was not saying that Hitler conspired
to make war on the US." ... I got to get to
work, but I didn't mean to imply that you said
that. Please accept my apology for being
unclear. I got that from the website describing
Hitler's June 1941 conversation with Matsuko.

Globalization41

[john2]

It's allright. I was being unclear too. I went to nizkor because that is the only place I could find that document. Nizkor is good for documents but it's interpratation of things is of course off the mark most of the time.

[ChristopherPerrien]

Finally as for yourself I asked you to provide me with more evidence to the claim that Roosevelt belived that if he foced to Japan into war that Germany would follow. You either have to prove he knew what Hitler was telling the Japanese or had somehow calculated some other way that Germany would declare war. If you can't show that evidence then you have no argument.

You must have me mixed up with somebody else.

claim that Roosevelt belived that if he foced to Japan into war that Germany would follow

Ain't me.

There is a whole different set of factors for why Roosevelt wanted to go to war with Germany, but that's another topic.

[Globalization41]

There was no written agreement between
Hitler and Japan just prior to Pearl Harbor.
The Tripartite Pact called for mutual
assistance in the case of aggression against
any of the parties. Hitler volunteered his
declaration of war on America hoping for a
quid pro quo from Japan against Russia. He
hated Roosevelt's provocations and influential
American-Jewish agitation. Additionally, the
German armies before Moscow and in Rostov
had just suffered their first major setbacks of
the war. The German Navy had been lobbying
to unleash its U-boats against American
merchantmen, which appeared as sitting
ducks. Bitter arguments with his generals
regarding whether to strategically retreat or
stand fast on the Moscow front stressed the
Fuehrer out. All this put Hitler in a grouchy
mood on 12/7/41 when news of the Pearl
Harbor raid broke and he made a snap
decision to declare war on the U.S. The
relieved Roosevelt then switched America's
war priority from Japan to Germany. ... Had
Hitler not declared war on America, Congress
would not have given Roosevelt a blank check
to supply the Red Army. The Soviets and
Germans would have eventually stalemated.
... In my estimation, Stalin should get 80% of
the credit for defeating Hitler, but the Soviet
dictator couldn't have done it without the extra
help from Roosevelt. The pragmatic Stalin
would have negotiated a peace settlement
whereas Roosevelt decided on unconditional
surrender. ... I think Hitler would have been
happy with a nice chunk of the Ukraine and
some oil fields. Furthermore, he was a
military buff. A few skirmishes here or there
would have been a groove. He might have
eventually oversaw a transition of power which
could have worked out OK under his
supervision. But if Hitler had died before
making clear arrangements for a successor,
there would have been a tremendous power
struggle with the leading contenders being the
S.S., the Army, and the Air Force which could
have erupted into civil war.

Globalization41

[john2]

Globlization, I agree with your post. From what I understand the Japanese presented Hitler with a new pact calling for a stronger alliance. When the Japanese presented Hitler with this pact now escapes me. I thought it was a few days before Pearl Harbor but it might have been the day after. In his declaration of war on the US Hitler mentions this new pact. I will have to look to see the exact date as the timing is important.

[john2]

Christopher - I went back and looked at your posts. You seem to think that Roosevelt let the attack on Pearl Harbor happen. I thought you were saying that Roosevelt wanted it to happen so that he could get Hitler to declare war. Apparently I didn't understand exactly what you were saying. Can you clarify for me exactly what your position is?

[ChristopherPerrien]

Christopher - I went back and looked at your posts. You seem to think that Roosevelt let the attack on Pearl Harbor happen. I thought you were saying that Roosevelt wanted it to happen so that he could get Hitler to declare war. Apparently I didn't understand exactly what you were saying. Can you clarify for me exactly what your position is?

Roosevelt wanted to go to war with Japan because they were intruding on capitalist trading interests that Roosevelt was an agent of, They wanted China as an American asset/market.

Let's just say that possibly, "Made in China", like everything is in America today, was a long term business plan.

The war in Europe was more of Roosevelt supporting International banking interests, who's Europepean investments and securities. international currency and bond markets, Hitler severely disrupted.
Plus of course his personal ties to Churchill. More could be said but that is another topic.

As a aside this is also why we warred with and are rebuilding Iraq, to guarantee international bond payments and to provide security/stability for the OIL market. Really the actions of our lackey presidents is nothing more than looking at the financial/special INTERESTS they represent, because they sure as hell don't represent America.