Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
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Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
On October 14, 1944, the Japanese launched scattered air attacks against US Navy Task Force 38 in retaliation for US Navy strikes against Formosa.
It seems one of these attacks was about 20-30 single-engine bombers, mostly said to be Judys (Yokosuka D4Y Suisei), which made it to the vicinity of Task Group 38.2 in the Philippine Sea around 1515 hours according to US reports. They were intercepted by F6F Hellcats of VF-18 from U.S.S. Intrepid, claiming 23 aircraft destroyed. US reports suggest only one bomber penetrated the defences, putting a bomb just wide of the carrier U.S.S. Hancock.
Experience tells me that the reality may be quite different to the US reports though. I can't find anything from the Japanese side on this. Is anyone able to enlighten me as to the details of this Japanese strike. Were they all D4Y Judys? How many were there, how many were actually lost, and from which units? I realize this detail may not be available, but any detail offered is much appreciated.
Note there was also an attack around 1500 hours made mainly by twin-engine bombers which was intercepted by VF-27, but it is the group intercepted by VF-18 that I'm really interested in. There were also other strikes that went in from around 1600 and later which are outside my area of focus here.
It seems one of these attacks was about 20-30 single-engine bombers, mostly said to be Judys (Yokosuka D4Y Suisei), which made it to the vicinity of Task Group 38.2 in the Philippine Sea around 1515 hours according to US reports. They were intercepted by F6F Hellcats of VF-18 from U.S.S. Intrepid, claiming 23 aircraft destroyed. US reports suggest only one bomber penetrated the defences, putting a bomb just wide of the carrier U.S.S. Hancock.
Experience tells me that the reality may be quite different to the US reports though. I can't find anything from the Japanese side on this. Is anyone able to enlighten me as to the details of this Japanese strike. Were they all D4Y Judys? How many were there, how many were actually lost, and from which units? I realize this detail may not be available, but any detail offered is much appreciated.
Note there was also an attack around 1500 hours made mainly by twin-engine bombers which was intercepted by VF-27, but it is the group intercepted by VF-18 that I'm really interested in. There were also other strikes that went in from around 1600 and later which are outside my area of focus here.
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
Probably, tho that level of losses by unescorted Japanese bombers may not be out of line. In February 1942 a strike by 17 twin engined bombers on the CV Lexington (east of Rabaul) resulted in effectively 100% loss from eight F4F & AAA. Flammability and weak structure of the Japanese aircraft were a major factor in this.JacksonsGhost wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 14:39... Experience tells me that the reality may be quite different to the US reports though. ...
Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
VF-18 pilot, Anthony J. Denman, in his August, 1989 interview, spoke of the action. He said that there were about 40 Japanese aircraft, which were a mix of Judys & Tonys. He said that the Intrepid pilots claimed 20 kills(he claimed 2). It was a low altitude interception due to cloud ceiling of 1000 feet. He was pursuing a 3rd, when the entire task force seemed to open up on him & his intended victim. At which point, he abandoned the chase.JacksonsGhost wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 14:39On October 14, 1944, the Japanese launched scattered air attacks against US Navy Task Force 38 in retaliation for US Navy strikes against Formosa.
It seems one of these attacks was about 20-30 single-engine bombers, mostly said to be Judys (Yokosuka D4Y Suisei), which made it to the vicinity of Task Group 38.2 in the Philippine Sea around 1515 hours according to US reports. They were intercepted by F6F Hellcats of VF-18 from U.S.S. Intrepid, claiming 23 aircraft destroyed. US reports suggest only one bomber penetrated the defences, putting a bomb just wide of the carrier U.S.S. Hancock.
Experience tells me that the reality may be quite different to the US reports though. I can't find anything from the Japanese side on this. Is anyone able to enlighten me as to the details of this Japanese strike. Were they all D4Y Judys? How many were there, how many were actually lost, and from which units? I realize this detail may not be available, but any detail offered is much appreciated.
Note there was also an attack around 1500 hours made mainly by twin-engine bombers which was intercepted by VF-27, but it is the group intercepted by VF-18 that I'm really interested in. There were also other strikes that went in from around 1600 and later which are outside my area of focus here.
He ended with TF 38.2 launching more aircraft that chased the remaining balance of the Japanese aircraft back towards the Philippines.
I have not come across anything from the Japanese side yet.
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
Thanks for your thoughts Carl. Yes, high losses are probably quite correct for the 14 October action, but I don't know how correct, and overclaiming is the norm (not just for US of course, but for all nations). That's why I'd like to hear the Japanese side to determine the actual composition of the strike in particular.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 19:32
Probably, tho that level of losses by unescorted Japanese bombers may not be out of line. In February 1942 a strike by 17 twin engined bombers on the CV Lexington (east of Rabaul) resulted in effectively 100% loss from eight F4F & AAA. Flammability and weak structure of the Japanese aircraft were a major factor in this.
To use the action you mention as an example, yes that 20 February 1942 strike was a disaster for the Japanese 4th Kokutai, and US reports are not too overstated in that case (Japanese record losing 15 of the 17 aircraft, while US F4Fs and SBDs claimed 18 and two probable - sources Claringbould/Ingman and Olynyk), but if I went purely by US reports I would still list upwards of 20 Japanese bombers in that strike instead of 17.
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
Thanks for the additional info Takao. I wasn't aware of that interview.Takao wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 01:39
VF-18 pilot, Anthony J. Denman, in his August, 1989 interview, spoke of the action. He said that there were about 40 Japanese aircraft, which were a mix of Judys & Tonys. He said that the Intrepid pilots claimed 20 kills(he claimed 2). It was a low altitude interception due to cloud ceiling of 1000 feet. He was pursuing a 3rd, when the entire task force seemed to open up on him & his intended victim. At which point, he abandoned the chase.
He ended with TF 38.2 launching more aircraft that chased the remaining balance of the Japanese aircraft back towards the Philippines.
I have not come across anything from the Japanese side yet.
It all helps to build the picture, and fits somewhat with my research to date. Frank Olynyk lists 23 aircraft credited as destroyed by Intrepid pilots in this action (listed pilot by pilot) and includes Denman's two claims as credits. Most pilots listed their claims as Judys, but two listed theirs as "Tony or Judy", while one claimed a Jill.
I just always try to get both sides of the story. Hopefully some Japanese records will surface before too long.
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
I just found and viewed the audio interview with Denman. Very interesting. Note his statement of 20 squadron claims refers to the first group of VF-18 Hellcats to intercept this strike only, to which Olynyk also credits 20 destroyed. The other three VF-18 credits mentioned by Olynyk were by the second group of VF-18 Hellcats, which Denman mentions only briefly.
Link to interview:
https://digitalcollections.museumofflig ... show/33159
Link to interview:
https://digitalcollections.museumofflig ... show/33159
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
The two aircraft that made it back to Rabul were hors combat. Required extensive repair. Their crews included casualties. One other bomber made it away from the carrier & the crew ditched on a beach. Along the way. Eighteen bombers were sortied, but one aborted back to Rabaul. Franks Fortress Rabaul has a relatively recently researched account of the battle.JacksonsGhost wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 02:51Thanks for your thoughts Carl. Yes, high losses are probably quite correct for the 14 October action, but I don't know how correct, and overclaiming is the norm (not just for US of course, but for all nations). That's why I'd like to hear the Japanese side to determine the actual composition of the strike in particular.Carl Schwamberger wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 19:32
Probably, tho that level of losses by unescorted Japanese bombers may not be out of line. In February 1942 a strike by 17 twin engined bombers on the CV Lexington (east of Rabaul) resulted in effectively 100% loss from eight F4F & AAA. Flammability and weak structure of the Japanese aircraft were a major factor in this.
To use the action you mention as an example, yes that 20 February 1942 strike was a disaster for the Japanese 4th Kokutai, and US reports are not too overstated in that case (Japanese record losing 15 of the 17 aircraft, while US F4Fs and SBDs claimed 18 and two probable - sources Claringbould/Ingman and Olynyk), but if I went purely by US reports I would still list upwards of 20 Japanese bombers in that strike instead of 17.
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
Thanks Carl, I think we've got 20 Feb 1942 sufficiently covered.
Now the big challenge is to find similar info for the specific action described on 14 October 1944.
Now the big challenge is to find similar info for the specific action described on 14 October 1944.
Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
Since you're looking mainly for the Japanese side, post the same question in the Japan at War subsection.
viewforum.php?f=65
viewforum.php?f=65
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
Indeed, a few of the members there are able to draw on the considerable Japanese sources.
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
I couldn't find anything on a dive bomber attack in Morison's Official History. You might try and put this question on the Imperial Japanese navy page at combindedfleet.com
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Re: Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38, October 14, 1944
Thanks for your suggestions guys.
You may have noticed I re-posted in the Japan at War forum on Takao and Carl's advice and eventually got a reasonable look at the Japanese side of the story thanks to the kind help of fontessa. Link below for the curious:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=247740&hilit=japanese+air+attacks
US reports seem fairly accurate for the most part, although there are a few interesting differences. It was still certainly quite a wipeout for the Judys. It's a shame fontessa's source book doesn't seem to be printed in English!
You may have noticed I re-posted in the Japan at War forum on Takao and Carl's advice and eventually got a reasonable look at the Japanese side of the story thanks to the kind help of fontessa. Link below for the curious:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=247740&hilit=japanese+air+attacks
US reports seem fairly accurate for the most part, although there are a few interesting differences. It was still certainly quite a wipeout for the Judys. It's a shame fontessa's source book doesn't seem to be printed in English!
Japanese Air Attacks on Task Force 38 October 14 1944
I think quite a few of us are coming down from BC.
Ive stayed at the Coastal Inn or something closely named, just off the 405 which is a stones throw from Tobys shop.
See you on the 21st.
Ive stayed at the Coastal Inn or something closely named, just off the 405 which is a stones throw from Tobys shop.
See you on the 21st.
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