Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5593
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by OpanaPointer » 03 Feb 2022 03:08

daveshoup2MD wrote:
03 Feb 2022 02:31
OpanaPointer wrote:
02 Feb 2022 14:01
Who was pretending what, please.

Rainbow 5 would be relevant? http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/misc/rainbow5.html

Edited to add: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/pt_14/x15-049.html (ABC-1 Talks.)
Pretending that once Japan had industrialized and could deploy and sustain expeditionary forces of significance in the Western Pacific, their decision to open hostilities could be prevented by a sufficient American investment in peacetime to hold Guam and the Philippines in the event of war. Everybody from Teddy to Franklin understood that, and it was US doctrine from 1922-23 onwards...
And who was pretending that?
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 1541
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 03 Feb 2022 03:15

OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Feb 2022 03:08
daveshoup2MD wrote:
03 Feb 2022 02:31
OpanaPointer wrote:
02 Feb 2022 14:01
Who was pretending what, please.

Rainbow 5 would be relevant? http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/misc/rainbow5.html

Edited to add: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/pt_14/x15-049.html (ABC-1 Talks.)
Pretending that once Japan had industrialized and could deploy and sustain expeditionary forces of significance in the Western Pacific, their decision to open hostilities could be prevented by a sufficient American investment in peacetime to hold Guam and the Philippines in the event of war. Everybody from Teddy to Franklin understood that, and it was US doctrine from 1922-23 onwards...
And who was pretending that?
The British when they "invited" the Americans to base the Pacific Fleet (as opposed to an Asiatic Fleet detachment) at Singapore, for one.

User avatar
TheMarcksPlan
Banned
Posts: 3255
Joined: 15 Jan 2019 22:32
Location: USA

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 03 Feb 2022 04:09

OpanaPointer wrote:
30 Mar 2021 15:05
Was Cavite and any other USN facilities better than Pearl? Would the infrastructure have to be built up to much greater degree than existed at the time?
In terms of pure natural, defensible harbor it's hard to beat Subic Bay. It's >100ft deep well into the basin, with surrounding mountains that provide some shelter from bombardment and torpedo-plane approach.

If USN could squeeze another infantry division from the Army, it would probably be possible to defend a Subic-Bataan redoubt for a long time with relatively small forces. Surroundings mountains (Tapulao and Pinatubo) mean only a few passes and narrow coastal plains have to be strongly defended:

Image

That gives you a redoubt that entirely contains a safe anchorage, unlike the Bataan redoubt which leaves Manila Bay's shores in hostile hands.

Another benefit of the mountainous terrain is that, unlike most tropical anchorages, this one probably sees few(er) malaria cases.

There's not a ton of infrastructure there in 1930's but the early-century Harbor Defenses of Manila and Subic Bays system did provide a start. You'd probably want to move the main airfield from Clark/Angeles behind the perimeter - on the coastal plain near San Narciso for example.

Today Subic hosts one of the largest shipbuilding sites in the world, though it went into bankruptcy in 2019.

Were I dictator of the US in 1936, this is where I'd have based my fleet and airpower...
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 1541
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 03 Feb 2022 08:11

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
03 Feb 2022 04:09


Were I dictator of the US in 1936, this is where I'd have based my fleet and airpower...
And if the Philippines were a wealthy, industrialized nation akin to Japan in 1936, presumably the Filipino dictator could have done the same.;)

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5593
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by OpanaPointer » 03 Feb 2022 15:07

Thanks, TheMarcksPlan, I've been to Subic several times.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 1541
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 03 Feb 2022 21:42

OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Feb 2022 15:07
Thanks, TheMarcksPlan, I've been to Subic several times.
As a member of the Canoe Crew, or the Yacht Club, or? ;)

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5593
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by OpanaPointer » 03 Feb 2022 22:56

daveshoup2MD wrote:
03 Feb 2022 21:42
OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Feb 2022 15:07
Thanks, TheMarcksPlan, I've been to Subic several times.
As a member of the Canoe Crew, or the Yacht Club, or? ;)
I was stationed at Yokosuka for a couple of years, WestPac was our back yard. Followed that up with my last sea tour on an LHA out of Long Beach. I still have a box of t-shirts around here somewheres, none of which could be worn to church. 8-)
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 1541
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 04 Feb 2022 00:43

OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Feb 2022 22:56
daveshoup2MD wrote:
03 Feb 2022 21:42
OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Feb 2022 15:07
Thanks, TheMarcksPlan, I've been to Subic several times.
As a member of the Canoe Crew, or the Yacht Club, or? ;)
I was stationed at Yokosuka for a couple of years, WestPac was our back yard. Followed that up with my last sea tour on an LHA out of Long Beach. I still have a box of t-shirts around here somewheres, none of which could be worn to church. 8-)
Haze grey and underway. Got a few of those as well.

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5593
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by OpanaPointer » 04 Feb 2022 00:58

Reeves in Yoko. Peleliu out of Long Beach.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 1541
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 05 Feb 2022 01:48

OpanaPointer wrote:
04 Feb 2022 00:58
Reeves in Yoko. Peleliu out of Long Beach.
Chester's namesake, out of Bremerton and North Island to points west...

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5593
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by OpanaPointer » 05 Feb 2022 14:37

When I was laid up with a bad appendix Mom came out to visit. I took her over to NI and let her see a mile of aircraft carriers tied up at the dock. I was RAdm. Grace Hopper's driver one day, she was at NI to dedicate their new super computer.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Lethl215
Member
Posts: 59
Joined: 19 Mar 2019 00:00
Location: Texas

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by Lethl215 » 05 Feb 2022 17:22

OpanaPointer wrote:
02 Feb 2022 17:50
Richardson never claimed the fleet was in jeopardy there. At least not while Congressional Investigations were going on. Under oath he said that his only complaint was about logistics and recreation. AFTER he was no longer under oath he told a different story. On The Treadmill to Pearl Harbor is an entertaining read, but it should shelved in the fiction area.
Completely disagree. Treadmill was co-researched and written by VADM Dyer (his Aid and Flag Secretary as a CDR on his staff at Battle Force and US Fleet, who later commanded Astoria (CL-90)) and has extensive references. And while JO never said the Fleet being at PH was a "sitting duck," his criticism during his PHA testimony also covered more than just "logistics and recreation." These are present throughout his correspondence within the PHA exhibits, also referenced within the book, all of which I know you are extremely familiar with. His post PHA criticism, as regards to PH, dealt with the absence of certain assumptions on Japanese war initiation in RAINBOW 3 and 5 that were in ORANGE. These would have been only accessible to him once he started writing the book as he was not in a position to look at RAINBOW 5 after his relief as CinCUS.

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5593
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by OpanaPointer » 05 Feb 2022 17:32

Feel free.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

daveshoup2MD
Member
Posts: 1541
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 18:10
Location: Coral and brass

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 05 Feb 2022 20:40

OpanaPointer wrote:
05 Feb 2022 14:37
When I was laid up with a bad appendix Mom came out to visit. I took her over to NI and let her see a mile of aircraft carriers tied up at the dock. I was RAdm. Grace Hopper's driver one day, she was at NI to dedicate their new super computer.
Pretty cool re Amazing Grace.

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5593
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Cavite superior to Pearl, or could be built up to snuff?

Post by OpanaPointer » 05 Feb 2022 20:57

daveshoup2MD wrote:
05 Feb 2022 20:40
OpanaPointer wrote:
05 Feb 2022 14:37
When I was laid up with a bad appendix Mom came out to visit. I took her over to NI and let her see a mile of aircraft carriers tied up at the dock. I was RAdm. Grace Hopper's driver one day, she was at NI to dedicate their new super computer.
Pretty cool re Amazing Grace.
Yep. She visited our office when I told her we had just received our computers. She patted one. :lol: (I had no idea what I was doing so I went to book store, gave them the cover letter and said "UHH!!!". "Well, you have an IBM computer running MSDOS." He gave me a book and still owe him a lot.")
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Return to “WW2 in the Pacific & Asia”