Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

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paulrward
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by paulrward » 15 Mar 2022 19:57

Hello All :

I keep seeing MacArthur being referred to as a ' Generalissimo ' - which is defined as:

'A commander of a combined military force consisting of army, navy, and air force units.'


Does this mean that Eisenhower and Nimitz were also 'Generalissimos' ? And, does this
mean that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is a ' Generalissimo' ?

How about Colin Powell ? And every President of the United States since Abraham Lincoln ?

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
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Delta Tank
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Delta Tank » 15 Mar 2022 20:23

Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Mar 2022 19:13
Delta Tank wrote:
15 Mar 2022 18:16
When did MacArthur retire? 1937?? He was not ordered back to active duty until July 1941?? So, why was he drawing active duty pay while retired? I need to get that deal!😁

Mike
Interesting and slightly different than what I thought and what has been published.

He left the post of CoS 1 October 1935 and thus reverted to his permanent rank of major general, remaining on active duty with the special post of Military Advisor to the Commonwealth Government. He retired with rank of General as of 31 December 1937. So the first two years of his stint as generalissimo was while he was on active duty he also drew the pay of a Major General, then until 26 July 1941 when he was recalled to active duty, he was both generalissimo and retired General. The interesting thing is the pay scales of the time recognized just two pay scales for general officers, the 7th and 8th "pay periods" and length of service made no difference. It was $500/month for the 7th and $666.67/month for the 8th pay period. General and flag officers were also granted rental and subsistence allowances not given to lower ranking officers. Interestingly, general officers did not receive a pay raise until 1946.
Holy Cow, I don’t know how much that money was worth back in the day, but it doesn’t appear to be very much money!! When I was a Private back in 1974, I think I got $266.00 a month after taxes. But, since I lived in the barracks and ate in the mess hall I had more disposable income than when I was a Captain!! Of course, I had a wife, two kids, and two German Shorthair Pointers!! “Soldier that’s where my money goes!” ( old jody)

Mike

Richard Anderson
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Mar 2022 21:59

Delta Tank wrote:
15 Mar 2022 20:23
Holy Cow, I don’t know how much that money was worth back in the day, but it doesn’t appear to be very much money!! When I was a Private back in 1974, I think I got $266.00 a month after taxes. But, since I lived in the barracks and ate in the mess hall I had more disposable income than when I was a Captain!! Of course, I had a wife, two kids, and two German Shorthair Pointers!! “Soldier that’s where my money goes!” ( old jody)

Mike
Per capita income average in 1935 was $474 and in 1942 it was $1,885. So, $13,806.20 per month was nothing to sneeze at and still isn't today. Currently an O-10 draws $16,975.

OTOH, my Dad made $150 a month as a 2d Lieutenant with less than 3 years service, so less than the average per capita,

BTW, a Private with less than three years service in 1942 made $50 a month, a Captain $200.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Delta Tank
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Delta Tank » 15 Mar 2022 23:35

Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Mar 2022 21:59
Delta Tank wrote:
15 Mar 2022 20:23
Holy Cow, I don’t know how much that money was worth back in the day, but it doesn’t appear to be very much money!! When I was a Private back in 1974, I think I got $266.00 a month after taxes. But, since I lived in the barracks and ate in the mess hall I had more disposable income than when I was a Captain!! Of course, I had a wife, two kids, and two German Shorthair Pointers!! “Soldier that’s where my money goes!” ( old jody)

Mike
Per capita income average in 1935 was $474 and in 1942 it was $1,885. So, $13,806.20 per month was nothing to sneeze at and still isn't today. Currently an O-10 draws $16,975.

OTOH, my Dad made $150 a month as a 2d Lieutenant with less than 3 years service, so less than the average per capita,

BTW, a Private with less than three years service in 1942 made $50 a month, a Captain $200.
Rich,

You wrote this: “It was $500/month for the 7th and $666.67/month for the 8th pay period. General and flag officers were also granted rental and subsistence allowances not given to lower ranking officers. Interestingly, general officers did not receive a pay raise until 1946.”

500 a month times 12 is $6,000.00 a year!! $666.67 x 12 is $8,000.00 a year! Where did you get $13,806.20 a month?

Per capital income above for a month or a year??

Isn’t pay capped at a certain point? Long time ago, when I was an aide to a Major General, one of the Brigadier Generals got promoted and the CG said “this your last pay raise.”

My daughter is a Major in the Army, yup her pay is pretty good!

Mike

Richard Anderson
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Mar 2022 23:43

Delta Tank wrote:
15 Mar 2022 23:35
500 a month times 12 is $6,000.00 a year!! $666.67 x 12 is $8,000.00 a year! Where did you get $13,806.20 a month?
Sorry, got distracted and posted before I was finished. $666.67 a month in 1935 dollars is $13,806.20 a month in 2022 dollars.
Isn’t pay capped at a certain point? Long time ago, when I was an aide to a Major General, one of the Brigadier Generals got promoted and the CG said “this your last pay raise.”
1922-1942 there was no pay benefit for long service if you were a general or flag officer. The same is more or less true today for O-10.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Mar 2022 20:21

Taken from Grunnerts memo quoted in post 138
in the immediate future, and might result in involving us in action in that theater which we are not prepared to sustain."
Anyone see in that a recognition of the basic premise of WP ORANGE that the USN cannot defend or hold open a supply line to PI? Or is it a warning that since war with Japan is more of a hypothetical at this point then a long term meaning full action would not happen, Congress redirecting the funds/material elsewhere & what was sent there to little & thus wasted? To put that another way how seriously was anyone taking a hypothetical war with Japan in May 1940, or May 1941?

Sorry to digress from the discussion of MacArthurs compensation.

LAstry2
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by LAstry2 » 30 May 2022 22:49

US Memorial Day for Veterans
In Memory of the US and Fillipino Battling Bastards of Bataan 1941-1942....

Gordon, John "Fighting For MacArthur:The Navy and Marine Corps Desperate Defense of the Philippines" US Naval institute Press Annapolis, MD 2011
Sloan, Bill "Undefeated: America's Heroic Fight For Bataan and Corregidor" Simon & Schuster 2012 :thumbsup: :milwink: :milwink:

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jul 2022 13:22

Hi Guys,

This link, entitled "How MacArthur caused the Philippines Disaster" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfWAKZdelrk), doesn't do a lot for his reputation.

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ljadw » 09 Jul 2022 16:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:
09 Jul 2022 13:22
Hi Guys,

This link, entitled "How MacArthur caused the Philippines Disaster" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfWAKZdelrk), doesn't do a lot for his reputation.

Cheers,

Sid.
This link is typical : it refuses the Japanese the credit,the merit for the conquest of the Philippines,and claims that it is all the fault of a ''bad '' American general.Japanese could not defeat US soldiers without the presence of a stupid US general .
The same was and is claimed about Market Garden :without allied mistakes,the inferior Germans could not defeat the allies .
And it is the same for the Marne,for Barbarossa,etc,etc ...

paulrward
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by paulrward » 09 Jul 2022 19:16

Hello All ;

Actually, what it shows is that:

1) The Philippines had, for many years, been accepted by the U.S. as a 'Write-off' in case of war-
it was only at that last moment, when it was too late, that Freewheelin' Franklin decided to try
to coerce the Japanese with a fortified Philippines that had offensive bombers stationed on the
islands. Freewheelin' Franky is quoted as saying that " MacArthur is the most Dangerous Man
in America ! " ignoring the fact that it was Roosevelt's last minute charade of trying to
reinforce the Philippines and his embargoes against the Japanese that led to the War in
the first place. And, let us NOT mention that it was Freewheelin Franky's idea to move the
Pacific Fleet to Hawaii, where they could ' Threaten the Japanese....'

You want to find the real culprit for the disaster in the Philippines ? He was rolling around the
hallways of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue !


2) The war came about five months too early for the U.S. - if the U.S. had continued according
to the existing plans for another five months, the P-40s would have been operational, there would
have been more artillery for the Philippine Army, and there would have been a much more developed
infrastructure to carry out a successful defense of the islands. MacArthur was trying to do too much
with too little, but his alternative would have been simply to do nothing, and surrender, like the
British in Malaya.


3) The first morning of the war, Brereton, one of the ' Bomber Barons ' of the USAAF, was constantly
trying to get his bombers on a strike against Formosa, despite the fact that HE HAD NO MAPS OF THE
JAPANESE INSTALLATIONS ON FORMOSA TO ATTACK ! Brereton literally wanted to send his aircraft on
a mission where, when they arrived over Formosa, they would begin flying around in circles at 25,000
feet LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO BOMB !


4) It shows how the Fighter Defense of the Philippines was essentially knocked out on the first
day of fighting, due to the lack of training and experience of the USAAF fighter pilots. Most had
just come from flight school, few had ever flown in even an obsolete fighter, and NONE had ever
flown a P-40 prior to arriving in the Philippines.

It does NOT mention the fact that there was NO INFRASTRUCTURE in the Philippines to support
the Heavy Bomber force, no repair facilities, insufficient fuel trucks, no supply of Oxygen for
the high altitude breathing systems, and no single place where all 35 bombers could be located
to equip them for a long range strike. IT IS A FACT that two weeks prior to the attack, MacArthur
had ordered ALL the B-17s to be move to Del Monte Field in the Central Philippines, where they
would have been out of range of the Japanese Bombers. Brereton ignored this order, and so
half the bombers were left vulnerable to attack, in which 12 were destroyed and another four
damaged, though these four were made flyable and evacuated to Australia. ( One of these four
B-17s managed to take off with the left inboard engine belching black smoke and venting oil, and
the pilots, as soon as they were off the ground, hoisted up the landing gear, and with barely
enough flying speed, shut down the dying engine, feathered the prop with the last bit of
oil pressure left, and then flew non-stop to Darwin, Australia on three engines ! )


5) It also shows how Admiral Hart's Asiatic Fleet ( and, it should be noted, a slang term for a sailor
in the USN at that time who was acting in a deranged manner was that ' He had gone Asiatic...." )
did little or nothing in the fighting for the Philippines. The surface ships ran away as fast as they
could steam, while the USN submarines sank very few ships in the defense of the islands, being
mainly used to evacuate Philippine Gold and Station Cast codebreakers to Australia.


6) It is easy to try to Scapegoat MacArthur for the defeat in the Phillppines. But, it must be
remembered, he was fighting a losing battle with insufficient forces against an overwhelmingly
strong enemy, and that, during his fight, he received not a single bit of support in terms of
supplies, equipment, or reinforcements from the United States. He fought with what he had.

And, do not forget: The Japanese assumed they would overwhelm the Philippines in about six
weeks, just as they had done with French IndoChina, British Malaya, and the Netherlands East
Indies. In fact, it took them almost FIVE MONTHS to defeat the U.S. and Philippine forces on
Bataan and Corregidor, and the Japanese NEVER defeated the Philippine and U.S. Guerillas who
continually inflicted losses on the Japanese until MacArthur was able to ' Return ! '

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
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Delta Tank
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Delta Tank » 09 Jul 2022 22:52

Paul R. Ward,

Bravo!! But, without digging out a book I will add:

1. 43,000 men were to be in the Bataan perimeter, but an additional 40,000 soldiers and about 23,000 civilians were also inside the perimeter. So, the troops went on half rations immediately because there were more than twice as many mouths to feed. So, they had enough food for six months for 43,000, but they did not have enough for 106,000!!

2. Why did the government of the Philippines deny the US Army permission from moving food across provincial political boundaries?

3. Why did the government of the Philippines deny the US Army permission from emptying a Japanese owned warehouse full of food?

4. If MacArthur did everything right could the US Army of held Bataan until February (can’t remember the exact date we recaptured Bataan) of 1945?

5. Why didn’t FDR activate the Army of the Philippines in 1940? Why did he wait until July 1941?

6. The video did not mention all the equipment problems, artillery guns without sights, tanks with no HE rounds, fuzes for artillery and mortars that were duds.

Mike

Delta Tank
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Delta Tank » 10 Jul 2022 00:09

To all,

MacArthur’s irrational haters lurk everywhere, and since I have been involved in some of these irrational discussions I thought I would post this thread. This post started out on Singapore but morphed at lighting speed to MacArthur and the Philippines. In this thread I list other numerous threads from numerous uninformed or poorly informed MacArthur haters.

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=168183&hilit=Phili ... b&start=15

Mike

LineDoggie
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by LineDoggie » 18 Jul 2022 00:05

Delta Tank wrote:
09 Jul 2022 22:52
Paul R. Ward,

Bravo!! But, without digging out a book I will add:

1. 43,000 men were to be in the Bataan perimeter, but an additional 40,000 soldiers and about 23,000 civilians were also inside the perimeter. So, the troops went on half rations immediately because there were more than twice as many mouths to feed. So, they had enough food for six months for 43,000, but they did not have enough for 106,000!!

2. Why did the government of the Philippines deny the US Army permission from moving food across provincial political boundaries?

3. Why did the government of the Philippines deny the US Army permission from emptying a Japanese owned warehouse full of food?

4. If MacArthur did everything right could the US Army of held Bataan until February (can’t remember the exact date we recaptured Bataan) of 1945?

5. Why didn’t FDR activate the Army of the Philippines in 1940? Why did he wait until July 1941?

6. The video did not mention all the equipment problems, artillery guns without sights, tanks with no HE rounds, fuzes for artillery and mortars that were duds.

Mike
Some other issues logistically for USAFFE

even though the 60mm Mortar was on issue to the Infantry regiments of the Philippine division, no 60mm Mortar bombs ever were sent to the Philippines

81mm Mortar Bombs were exceedingly scarce, so sabots were improvised for 3inch (76mm) WW1 Stokes mortar bombs which led to short rounds and bombs spinning end over end when fired.

37mm HE for the M3 Stuart and M3 Anti tank gun was anemic with a burster charge of 27-39 grams of TNT

75mm HE for the GMC's used the Same ammo as the French 75- Mk1 Shrapnel, M41HE, M48HE

3 Inch AA shells had condemned fuses

Web Belts for the .30 & .50 Browning ground machineguns rotted from improper storage over the decades and the tropical weather

Almost ALL cal.30 ammo for rifle/BAR use was packaged in 5 rd stripper clips, Yet the Philippine divisions infantry regiments 31st US, 45th PS, 57th PS, were issued the "Gas Trap" M-1 Garand so 8 shot enbloc clips had to be scavenged after use and reloaded by hand.


M1 Garands suffered from galling issues in downpours as the rain washed away the oil from the bolt lugs and raceways, Ordnance wired this back to the US and the Lubriplate grease was developed and issued to solve the problem for the rest of the US Army
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Jul 2022 07:10

Hi Guys,

It is very interesting that not one of the replies addresses the central point of the link that MacArthur ignored the existing WPO3 plan to fall back immediately on Bataan and instead tried to fight forward. He seems to have overestimated the capacity of his Philippino forces and/or underestimated the Japanese (as, in fairness, did everyone else). Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 18 Jul 2022 07:22, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Jul 2022 07:20

Hi Delta Tank,

You say, "MacArthur’s irrational haters lurk everywhere.....". Possibly, but so do his rational ones.

Cheers,

Sid.

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