Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

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ljadw
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ljadw » 26 Jul 2022 11:25

daveshoup2MD wrote:
09 Jan 2022 01:55
Delta Tank wrote:
09 Jan 2022 01:35
daveshoup2MD wrote:
09 Jan 2022 00:29
His abilities in terms of the peacetime administration and organization of the Philippine Commonwealth Army in the late 1930s, and his record as a wartime theater commander in the Philippines in 1941-42, in the SWPA in 1942-45, and in the Far East in 1950-51, is severely lacking. Whether he could have or should have been replaced in those assignments, and who could have functioned as such a replacement, and how well they would have done, is unknowable, but there are some indications - Ridgeway, for example, was a far more effective theater commander in the Far East than MacArthur had been.
Severely lacking? Please explain.

Mike
See below:

1) The PCA's organization and administration in the prewar period (call it 1936-40) was poorly conceived and led, given the available resources; the PCA's performance in 1941-42 makes that clear. The PCA fought, and many of its officers and men did so gallantly, but they lost, hard ... and MacArthur was the architect and builder of the PCA, who had taken up that responsibility willingly. Thus, he failed.

2) As theater commander in the PI in 1941-42, MacArthur and his subordinates and staff were surprised by Japan's initiation of hostilities, his initial strategy to meet the Japanese on the beaches failed, and his management of the withdrawal to, and defense of, Bataan was fair at best. The comparison with Hart's ability to preserve his force, and actually fight and win a battle against the Japanese in the theater, is a notable contrast.

3) In the SWPA in 1942-45, his ability to lead a joint, combined, and Allied force was fair to poor, especially in comparison to his American peers in similar posts, who - in comparison to MacArthur - were masters of coalition warfare. There's no comparison between MacArthur's ability and those of, for example, Eisenhower's ability to lead an Allied command, much less Nimitz' (and Halsey's) ability to lead joint commands. Of the four US flag/general officers who served as (essentially) supreme Allied commanders in theaters in high intensity operations with Allied and joint forces under command, MacArthur was by far the least capable.

4) In FEC, MacArthur and his his subordinates and staff were surprised yet again, twice - both by the initial North Korean invasion and the subsequent Chinese intervention, which is a matter of historical record in both instances.

Other than that, he was a great captain, undoubtedly. ;)
1 :this is wrong .You can't use MacArthur as a scapegoat for the failure to defeat the Japanese forces in the Philippines,given the inability/unwillingness ( or both ) from the WH to give MacArthur the supplies/manpower he needed .
2 He was surprised! As were Washington, FDR, Marshall, Stark ,... (Why was Marshall not fired as was Stark ?)
And if he was not surprised,the results would be the same
3 The difference between Mac Arthur and Ike was that initially Ike's forces were mainly not American,while MacArthur's forces were mainly American .
Besides : did the Australians criticize Mac Arthur ?
4 The CIA was also surprised, twice,but the Langley lobby invented a lot of excuses .

ljadw
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ljadw » 26 Jul 2022 11:36

rcocean wrote:
25 Jan 2022 04:45
THe budget was too small for any Philippine army to become well trained. MacArthur had so little money, they couldn't even hold a parade in 1937. And the Filipino army wasn't just organized by MacArthur, it was organized by Eisenhower. So, you'll have to blame him too.

FDR didn't provide MacArthur with enough miliary aid. He's the one to blame. He refused to mobilize the Philippine army and provide it with adequate $$ in the fall of 1940. He was POTUS, the buck stops there.
:thumbsup:

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Aug 2022 07:15

Hi rcocean,

So, in saying, "And the Filipino army wasn't just organized by MacArthur, it was organized by Eisenhower", are you effectively giving credit for the very existence of Bataan Campaign to Eisenhower, not MacArthur, because the US troops present were not sufficient to hold the line across the peninsula on their own?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by OpanaPointer » 14 Aug 2022 18:13

rcocean wrote:
25 Jan 2022 04:45
THe budget was too small for any Philippine army to become well trained. MacArthur had so little money, they couldn't even hold a parade in 1937. And the Filipino army wasn't just organized by MacArthur, it was organized by Eisenhower. So, you'll have to blame him too.

FDR didn't provide MacArthur with enough miliary aid. He's the one to blame. He refused to mobilize the Philippine army and provide it with adequate $$ in the fall of 1940. He was POTUS, the buck stops there.
This was the period where the Army recruits were training to use pipes mounted on boards to stop trucks with "tank" on the side.
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Aug 2022 22:19

Hi Opanapointer,

Many of us have been through similar. When I joined the Rhodesian Security Forces in the late 1970s I was asked at interview about previous military experience by Deputy Commander Pringle. Amongst other things, I mentioned that I had been a Bren gunner in my school cadet force in the early 1970s but that due to a lack of actual Bren guns I was issued with a football rattle instead so that at least I could simulate the sound! Pringle was astounded because he had had the identical experience in the mid 1930s! (In 1979 I at last got real Bren guns when twelve old South African .303 Brens were issued to my unit.)

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Delta Tank » 29 Aug 2022 20:35

To all,
Maybe it would be fun to evaluate other Theater Commanders using the same logic and bias to evaluate MacArthur. I am way to lazy to write it myself, but if I did I would mention these events/incidents/screw-ups.

Nimitz:
Sending submarines out on patrol with a weapon that he knew was defective but he refused to fix for 21 months of the war. This one event lengthen to war by months.
Tarawa
Tarawa
Peleliu
Peleliu
Letting Halsey command a fleet at Leyte Gulf.
Letting Halsey stay in command after the first typhoon he sailed his fleet into.
Letting Halsey stay in command after the second time he sailed his fleet into.
Iwo Jima
Iwo Jima

Eisenhower:
Delaying the invasion of France for one month to allow another month of landing craft production, thereby giving up a good month of campaign weather.
Not ensuring that our tanks had a gun capable of defeating all known German tanks from any engagement angle.
Not ordering Montgomery to open the port of Antwerp immediately.
Not relieving Montgomery for not opening the port of Antwerp immediately.
Approving Operation Market Garden.
Being surprised by the German Counter Offensive, aka “The Battle of the Bulge”.
Not demanding more artillery ammunition for all guns.
Not demanding enough trucks to support the pursuit after the breakout of Normandy.
Not relieving General J. C. H. Lee

That ought to do it for now! Remember use the same logic and bias that is used to criticize MacArthur.

Mike

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Takao
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Takao » 29 Aug 2022 23:06

For starters...

Missing from the Nimitz list is:
Nimitz loses his entire command.

Missing from the Eisenhower list is:
Eisenhower loses his entire command.

Delta Tank
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Delta Tank » 30 Aug 2022 00:49

Takao wrote:
29 Aug 2022 23:06
For starters...

Missing from the Nimitz list is:
Nimitz loses his entire command.

Missing from the Eisenhower list is:
Eisenhower loses his entire command.
Damn!! That’s why we have you around!!😂😂😁

Mike

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Takao
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Takao » 30 Aug 2022 00:59

Your rules...I am only following them.

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 30 Aug 2022 01:53

Delta Tank wrote:
29 Aug 2022 20:35
Eisenhower:
Delaying the invasion of France for one month to allow another month of landing craft production, thereby giving up a good month of campaign weather.
Would have narrowed the beachhead and reduced the ability to land armor in the assault as well as made the build-up even slower than it was.
Not ensuring that our tanks had a gun capable of defeating all known German tanks from any engagement angle.
Not his job, not within his capability.
Not ordering Montgomery to open the port of Antwerp immediately.
He did.
Not relieving Montgomery for not opening the port of Antwerp immediately.
He had no such power. At best he could have done what he did later, threaten to resign, which would have been unlikely in September 1944.
Approving Operation Market Garden.
Why should he not have?
Being surprised by the German Counter Offensive, aka “The Battle of the Bulge”.
Then go ahead and relieve just about the entire Allied command.
Not demanding more artillery ammunition for all guns.
Again, not his job...but despite that he did.
Not demanding enough trucks to support the pursuit after the breakout of Normandy.
What would that do? The War Department turned down the ETOUSA request...was he supposed to hold his breath until he turned blue? He and Monty made an issue over landing craft and sometimes leadership is about the possible and in this case it wasn't, mostly because the heavy-duty trucks needed were jsut being produced.
Not relieving General J. C. H. Lee
Why? J.C.H. Lee was a supremely competent logistician...with issues, but who was supposed to be a better choice?
That ought to do it for now! Remember use the same logic and bias that is used to criticize MacArthur.
Well, I do try not to criticize MacArthur for things outside hie purview, perhaps the same for Eisenhower would be nice?
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Delta Tank
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Delta Tank » 30 Aug 2022 02:36

Richard Anderson wrote:
30 Aug 2022 01:53
Delta Tank wrote:
29 Aug 2022 20:35
Eisenhower:
Delaying the invasion of France for one month to allow another month of landing craft production, thereby giving up a good month of campaign weather.
Would have narrowed the beachhead and reduced the ability to land armor in the assault as well as made the build-up even slower than it was.
Not ensuring that our tanks had a gun capable of defeating all known German tanks from any engagement angle.
Not his job, not within his capability.
Not ordering Montgomery to open the port of Antwerp immediately.
He did.
Not relieving Montgomery for not opening the port of Antwerp immediately.
He had no such power. At best he could have done what he did later, threaten to resign, which would have been unlikely in September 1944.
Approving Operation Market Garden.
Why should he not have?
Being surprised by the German Counter Offensive, aka “The Battle of the Bulge”.
Then go ahead and relieve just about the entire Allied command.
Not demanding more artillery ammunition for all guns.
Again, not his job...but despite that he did.
Not demanding enough trucks to support the pursuit after the breakout of Normandy.
What would that do? The War Department turned down the ETOUSA request...was he supposed to hold his breath until he turned blue? He and Monty made an issue over landing craft and sometimes leadership is about the possible and in this case it wasn't, mostly because the heavy-duty trucks needed were jsut being produced.
Not relieving General J. C. H. Lee
Why? J.C.H. Lee was a supremely competent logistician...with issues, but who was supposed to be a better choice?
That ought to do it for now! Remember use the same logic and bias that is used to criticize MacArthur.
Well, I do try not to criticize MacArthur for things outside hie purview, perhaps the same for Eisenhower would be nice?
Rich,

You are using logic!! Remember I stated that:
“To all,
Maybe it would be fun to evaluate other Theater Commanders using the same logic and bias to evaluate MacArthur. I am way to lazy to write it myself, but if I did I would mention these events/incidents/screw-ups.”

Mike

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 30 Aug 2022 04:06

Delta Tank wrote:
30 Aug 2022 02:36
“To all,
Maybe it would be fun to evaluate other Theater Commanders using the same logic and bias to evaluate MacArthur. I am way to lazy to write it myself, but if I did I would mention these events/incidents/screw-ups.”

Mike
Well, yes, but I did evaluate Eisenhower using the same logic and bias I use to evaluate MacArthur. I know I have biases and work to keep them from overriding my logic but there it is. When I've criticized MacArthur I've tried to avoid criticizing him for things that were fundamentally out of his control.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Delta Tank
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Delta Tank » 30 Aug 2022 13:46

Richard Anderson wrote:
30 Aug 2022 04:06
Delta Tank wrote:
30 Aug 2022 02:36
“To all,
Maybe it would be fun to evaluate other Theater Commanders using the same logic and bias to evaluate MacArthur. I am way to lazy to write it myself, but if I did I would mention these events/incidents/screw-ups.”

Mike
Well, yes, but I did evaluate Eisenhower using the same logic and bias I use to evaluate MacArthur. I know I have biases and work to keep them from overriding my logic but there it is. When I've criticized MacArthur I've tried to avoid criticizing him for things that were fundamentally out of his control.
Rich,

With that outlook on History, you should write a history book. Oh, wait, you have written a few.

When is your next book?

Mike

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 30 Aug 2022 17:02

Delta Tank wrote:
30 Aug 2022 13:46
Rich,

With that outlook on History, you should write a history book. Oh, wait, you have written a few.

When is your next book?

Mike
Its finished, so when I get it published. Waiting a decision from Stackpole.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by LineDoggie » 30 Aug 2022 18:46

ljadw wrote:
26 Jul 2022 11:25

3 The difference between Mac Arthur and Ike was that initially Ike's forces were mainly not American, while MacArthur's forces were mainly American .
Besides : did the Australians criticize Mac Arthur ?
Mac A had a far larger contingent of Filipino's then CONUS born Americans. 10 Philippine Army divisions took part in the campaign, USAFFE had but one US division and half it's combat units were Philippine Scouts.
Philippine Army divisions 1941-42 and area of operations
North Luzon Force
South Luzon Force
Visayan-Mindanao Force
1st -SLF
11th- NLF
21st- NLF
31st- NLZ
41st- SLF
51st- SLF
61st-VMF
71st- SLF
81st- VMF
101st- VMF

Also several separate Regiments available

ljadw wrote:
26 Jul 2022 11:25
4 The CIA was also surprised, twice,but the Langley lobby invented a lot of excuses .
CIA didnt exist in WW2 twas formed in 1947 2 years AFER WW2 ended
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