Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
Richard Anderson
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 30 Aug 2022 20:28

LineDoggie wrote:
30 Aug 2022 18:46
ljadw wrote:
26 Jul 2022 11:25
4 The CIA was also surprised, twice,but the Langley lobby invented a lot of excuses .
CIA didnt exist in WW2 twas formed in 1947 2 years AFER WW2 ended
Your error is in attemting to argue with someone totally ignorant of the subject matter. This one also apparently believes "Washington, FDR, Marshall, Stark [were surprised by Pearl Harbor]".

In fact,

1. They were not surprised at all by the Japanese attack.
2. The commanders in Pearl Harbor were surprised despite numerous warnings.
3. The commanders in the Philippines were not surprised but displayed an inept inability to cope with the initial Japanese attacks and then happily lived in a cloud-cuckoo land until MacArthur fled to Australia and even then for sometime therafter.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

ljadw
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ljadw » 30 Aug 2022 20:46

This is avoiding the subject .
CIA was surprised when NK attacked SK and when China intervened . CIA was surprised when the USSR collapsed, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, when the Soviets launched the Sputnik . Etc,etc...
In 1941 DC was surprised by the attack on PH . DC means :the WH, the CNO, the chief of the army staff ,Congress.
They never imagined that Japan would attack,because the Japanese were only Untermenschen for them who would not dare to attack the US ,and thus the war in Europe had priority and they continued to challenge Japan .
The warnings to PH were totally useless and to follow the advises from DC would prevent the fleet at PH to be operational .
The attacks on Mac Arthur were politically inspired by the Democrats and are still politically inspired by the Democrats .

ljadw
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ljadw » 30 Aug 2022 20:47

Richard Anderson wrote:
30 Aug 2022 20:28
LineDoggie wrote:
30 Aug 2022 18:46
ljadw wrote:
26 Jul 2022 11:25
4 The CIA was also surprised, twice,but the Langley lobby invented a lot of excuses .
CIA didnt exist in WW2 twas formed in 1947 2 years AFER WW2 ended
Your error is in attemting to argue with someone totally ignorant of the subject matter. This one also apparently believes "Washington, FDR, Marshall, Stark [were surprised by Pearl Harbor]".

In fact,

1. They were not surprised at all by the Japanese attack.
2. The commanders in Pearl Harbor were surprised despite numerous warnings.
3. The commanders in the Philippines were not surprised but displayed an inept inability to cope with the initial Japanese attacks and then happily lived in a cloud-cuckoo land until MacArthur fled to Australia and even then for sometime therafter.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15105
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ljadw » 30 Aug 2022 20:48

Richard Anderson wrote:
30 Aug 2022 20:28
LineDoggie wrote:
30 Aug 2022 18:46
ljadw wrote:
26 Jul 2022 11:25
4 The CIA was also surprised, twice,but the Langley lobby invented a lot of excuses .
CIA didnt exist in WW2 twas formed in 1947 2 years AFER WW2 ended
Your error is in attemting to argue with someone totally ignorant of the subject matter. This one also apparently believes "Washington, FDR, Marshall, Stark [were surprised by Pearl Harbor]".

In fact,

1. They were not surprised at all by the Japanese attack.
2. The commanders in Pearl Harbor were surprised despite numerous warnings.
3. The commanders in the Philippines were not surprised but displayed an inept inability to cope with the initial Japanese attacks and then happily lived in a cloud-cuckoo land until MacArthur fled to Australia and even then for sometime therafter.
Mac Arthur did not flee to Australia,but left on the orders of the WH .

Richard Anderson
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Posts: 5672
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Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 30 Aug 2022 23:50

Yeah, another thread that jumped the shark.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

LineDoggie
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Joined: 03 Oct 2008 20:06

Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by LineDoggie » 31 Aug 2022 04:10

Richard Anderson wrote:
30 Aug 2022 20:28


until MacArthur fled to Australia
"Fled'' implies he deserted his post without orders. It is an undeniable fact he was ordered out by FDR through Marshall, the records exist. MacArthur, whatever else he was, was no Gordon Bennett
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

Richard Anderson
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Posts: 5672
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Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 31 Aug 2022 06:16

LineDoggie wrote:
31 Aug 2022 04:10
Richard Anderson wrote:
30 Aug 2022 20:28


until MacArthur fled to Australia
"Fled'' implies he deserted his post without orders. It is an undeniable fact he was ordered out by FDR through Marshall, the records exist. MacArthur, whatever else he was, was no Gordon Bennett
Fled, verb, run away from a place or situation of danger. Granted, MacArthur did not run away, he was sped away on a PT Boat but by whatever means he departed from a place or situation of danger. I said nothing either way about the how and why of that departure, it is your implication, not mine, that "he deserted his post without orders". Of course that he was so ordered indeed is an undeniable fact but then, as I pointed out, you were attempting to argue with someone who views facts as totaling fungible.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

ljadw
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ljadw » 31 Aug 2022 11:54

There was no reason to believe the unconfirmed messages about an attack on PH, as these messages were always debunked and as to believe them would not have changed the outcome of the fighting .
The French knew already in July 1914 about the German decision to activate the Schlieffen Plan,but ignored, justifiedly, these warnings .
Stalin received a lot of (false ) warnings about a German attack, but decided,wisely, to ignore them .
And, given the strength of his forces, MacArthur was totally justified to ignore the almost daily hysterical messages about a nearing Japanese attack .
Before 9/11 there were also alarmist messages about a terrorist attack, but no one took notice of these nonsense .
The intelligence services cried wolf .

ljadw
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ljadw » 31 Aug 2022 12:05

If Marshall knew about the attack,he would not be horseback riding at the moment of the nearing attack .

Richard Anderson
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Richard Anderson » 31 Aug 2022 19:24

More drumbeats of ignorance, red herrings, and straw man arguments. Yep, this thread has officially jumped way over the shark.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Sep 2022 06:53

Hi Guys,

After all the above, is there anyone here who would maintain that Douglas MacArthur WAS a "Caesar"?

Cheers,

Sid.

LAstryAGAIN
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 24 May 2023 17:13

In 1953 there was a offical Army History of the 1941 Battle of the Phillippines..
It can be read online
https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/5-2/5-2...

Also USAAF were not an indepdendant branch of the Military....In the Phillippines 1941 [until airman George Kearny took charge 1942-1945] the only persons who could give pertmission for the USAAF to fight were MacArthur and his Chief of Staff Richard Sutherland....

By the MacArthur was a a Field marshall of the Phillippine Commonwealth army....according to William Manchester the President of the Phillippines Quezon kept begging MacArthur not to provoke the Japanese by fighting on the grounds the Phillippines were neutral..pp.206-207 which is confirmed www.historynet.com/why-did-macarthur-wa ... ike-first/

LineDoggie
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by LineDoggie » 24 May 2023 17:27

Sid Guttridge wrote:
02 Sep 2022 06:53
Hi Guys,

After all the above, is there anyone here who would maintain that Douglas MacArthur WAS a "Caesar"?

Cheers,

Sid.
never was stabbed to death....
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

LineDoggie
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by LineDoggie » 24 May 2023 17:34

LAstryAGAIN wrote:
24 May 2023 17:13


Also USAAF were not an indepdendant branch of the Military....In the Phillippines 1941 [until airman George Kearny took charge 1942-1945] the only persons who could give pertmission for the USAAF to fight were MacArthur and his Chief of Staff Richard Sutherland....
Makes no sense what you posted.

MG George KENNY commanded the 5th Air Force, which was not part of the Philippines command, it being formed AFTER the Philippines fell to Japan.

FEAF was commanded by Maj. Gen. Lewis H. Brereton

and as Commander of US Army Forces Far East MacArthur would be the one to order combat operations in support of USAFFE
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

LAstryAGAIN
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by LAstryAGAIN » 24 May 2023 17:41

I didnt say Kenny commanded the USAAF in the Phillippines in 1941 I simply ment that the USAAF in 1941 fell under the command of the US Theather Commander...In this case MacArthur and or Sutherland [neither of whom were airman]; not until Kenny did take command was the USAAF in the Far East was it someone who not only knew Air Power but could also stand up to both Sutherland and MacArthur

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