Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#76

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jan 2022, 13:52

Hi daveshoup,

.....and yet most of the front on Bataan was held most of the time by Philippino troops, who suffered most of the Allied casualties!

If there had been no Philippino troops, it is doubtful if US resistance would have lasted more than a few weeks, because, by virtue of their numbers, the Philippinos were vital to holding any sort of continuous line across the Bataan Peninsula. There simply weren't enough US troops to do that. Indeed, it might be argued there could have been no significant Bataan campaign without them.

The Philippino troops cannot reasonably be written off as lightly as you appear to want. Whatever their limitations, they were integral and vital to the US campaign. Indeed, might it not be argued that the US presence was largely concerned with providing the supporting artillery, armour, air, technical and training services and higher leadership needed to keep them in the line?

Cheers,

Sid.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#77

Post by daveshoup2MD » 29 Jan 2022, 20:18

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jan 2022, 13:52
Hi daveshoup,

.....and yet most of the front on Bataan was held most of the time by Philippino troops, who suffered most of the Allied casualties!

If there had been no Philippino troops, it is doubtful if US resistance would have lasted more than a few weeks, because, by virtue of their numbers, the Philippinos were vital to holding any sort of continuous line across the Bataan Peninsula. There simply weren't enough US troops to do that. Indeed, it might be argued there could have been no significant Bataan campaign without them.

The Philippino troops cannot reasonably be written off as lightly as you appear to want. Whatever their limitations, they were integral and vital to the US campaign. Indeed, might it not be argued that the US presence was largely concerned with providing the supporting artillery, armour, air, technical and training services and higher leadership needed to keep them in the line?

Cheers,

Sid.
You're confusing the US army's Philippine Scout (PS) elements and the Philippine Commonwealth Army (PCA).

The PS units - infantry, cavalry, field and coast artillery, engineers, etc. - were trained and equipped to US standards (as they were in 1941) and acquitted themselves quite well, as did all the US Army and Marine ground force elements, and - given who they were and what they had - the various ad hoc/provisional elements of the USAAF and USN that served in the line during the Bataan campaign.

The PCA elements of the Bataan Defense Force, both in I and II Philippine Corps, amounted - in numbers - to the equivalent of seven US Army infantry RCTs, with some supporting Philippine Constabulary MP equivalents and some service/support elements, but with the huge caveat that the seven RCT-equivalents of the PCA on Luzon had - at best - a months worth of training as such, and their field artillery elements were all closer to a battery in strength, rather than a battalion. Throughout the campaign, the PCA remained what it always had been - a poorly-trained, organized, and led militia, that was capable of little in terms of combat operations beyond staying in field defenses and some behind the lines security operations. In other words, roughly the same as the LDV in the UK in 1940, except with many fewer combat veterans amongst its ranks.

The PCA elements "held the line" on Bataan because the Japanese chose not to attack in Bataan for much of first quarter of 1942; once the IJA did attack, the PCA collapsed and the US units - including the PS - fought and died.

The US war plan - until MacArthur's delusions - was always to withdraw to Bataan and hold a line; MacArthur's "plan" was that the PCA were going to hold at the beaches ... that concept, of course, failed because of the weakness of the PCA militia, and the US forces withdrew into Bataan anyway.


Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#78

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Jan 2022, 12:06

Hi daveshoup.

Nope, I am not, ".....confusing the US army's Philippine Scout (PS) elements and the Philippine Commonwealth Army (PCA)." Even if you include the 8,000 Philipinos in the Scouts as US troops, the folowing would still apply:

.....and yet most of the front on Bataan was held most of the time by Philippino troops, who suffered most of the Allied casualties!

If there had been no Philippino troops, it is doubtful if US resistance would have lasted more than a few weeks, because, by virtue of their numbers, the Philippinos were vital to holding any sort of continuous line across the Bataan Peninsula. There simply weren't enough US troops to do that. Indeed, it might be argued there could have been no significant Bataan campaign without them.

The Philippino troops cannot reasonably be written off as lightly as you appear to want. Whatever their limitations, they were integral and vital to the US campaign. Indeed, might it not be argued that the US presence was largely concerned with providing the supporting artillery, armour, air, technical and training services and higher leadership needed to keep them in the line?

Cheers,

Sid.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#79

Post by daveshoup2MD » 30 Jan 2022, 20:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
30 Jan 2022, 12:06
Hi daveshoup.

Nope, I am not, ".....confusing the US army's Philippine Scout (PS) elements and the Philippine Commonwealth Army (PCA)." Even if you include the 8,000 Philipinos in the Scouts as US troops, the folowing would still apply:

.....and yet most of the front on Bataan was held most of the time by Philippino troops, who suffered most of the Allied casualties!

If there had been no Philippino troops, it is doubtful if US resistance would have lasted more than a few weeks, because, by virtue of their numbers, the Philippinos were vital to holding any sort of continuous line across the Bataan Peninsula. There simply weren't enough US troops to do that. Indeed, it might be argued there could have been no significant Bataan campaign without them.

The Philippino troops cannot reasonably be written off as lightly as you appear to want. Whatever their limitations, they were integral and vital to the US campaign. Indeed, might it not be argued that the US presence was largely concerned with providing the supporting artillery, armour, air, technical and training services and higher leadership needed to keep them in the line?

Cheers,

Sid.
12,000 in the PS, actually.

Along with the ~8,000 in the US Army infantry division, there were another 4,000 in the coast and AA artillery, and separate field artillery, cavalry, and service and support elements - it's laid out to the individual in Table 2 of The Fall of Philippines by Morton, which has been linked to above in this thread. Well worth reading.

I was trying to be charitable, but okay, to support your statement that Filipino troops (meaning, not the PS personnel) "suffered most of the Allied casualties!," please provide a casualty list (KIA, mortally wounded, WIA, POW, and missing) comparing US (Army, including the PS, Marines, Navy), PCA, and PC personnel during the active campaign on Luzon (December, 1941 to May, 1942).

Thanks in advance.

US maneuver forces (excluding the PCA militia and the PC) on Luzon in 1941 amounted to the equivalent of 12 or so full strength maneuver battalions, nine infantry, one cavalry, and two armored; the interwar plan was always to withdraw to Bataan (and/or Corregidor and the other harbor defense islands) and hold as long as possible, with the goal of denying the Japanese Manila Bay and the port. These plans never depended on the PCA militia, because it did not exist, even on paper, until 1936 (and, arguably, didn't really exist until 1941).

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#80

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Jan 2022, 09:07

Hi daveshoup,.

You ask, ".....support your statement that Filipino troops (meaning, not the PS personnel) "suffered most of the Allied casualties!," But that wasn't my statement, was it?

Perhaps you would care to offer a breakdown of casualties yourself, if you believe that the more US than Philippino troops became casualties?

Cheers,

Sid.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#81

Post by daveshoup2MD » 01 Feb 2022, 00:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:
31 Jan 2022, 09:07
Hi daveshoup,.

You ask, ".....support your statement that Filipino troops (meaning, not the PS personnel) "suffered most of the Allied casualties!," But that wasn't my statement, was it?

Perhaps you would care to offer a breakdown of casualties yourself, if you believe that the more US than Philippino troops became casualties?

Cheers,

Sid.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
30 Jan 2022, 12:06
Hi daveshoup.

Nope, I am not, ".....confusing the US army's Philippine Scout (PS) elements and the Philippine Commonwealth Army (PCA)." Even if you include the 8,000 Philipinos in the Scouts as US troops, the folowing would still apply:

.....and yet most of the front on Bataan was held most of the time by Philippino troops, who suffered most of the Allied casualties!

If there had been no Philippino troops, it is doubtful if US resistance would have lasted more than a few weeks, because, by virtue of their numbers, the Philippinos were vital to holding any sort of continuous line across the Bataan Peninsula. There simply weren't enough US troops to do that. Indeed, it might be argued there could have been no significant Bataan campaign without them.

The Philippino troops cannot reasonably be written off as lightly as you appear to want. Whatever their limitations, they were integral and vital to the US campaign. Indeed, might it not be argued that the US presence was largely concerned with providing the supporting artillery, armour, air, technical and training services and higher leadership needed to keep them in the line?

Cheers,

Sid.
Is the boldfaced statement above yours?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#82

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Feb 2022, 15:15

Hi daveshoup,

Yup. Both.

So, what is your reply to: "Perhaps you would care to offer a breakdown of casualties yourself, if you believe that the more US than Philippino troops became casualties?"

Cheers,

Sid.

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#83

Post by daveshoup2MD » 02 Feb 2022, 08:42

Sid Guttridge wrote:
01 Feb 2022, 15:15
Hi daveshoup,

Yup. Both.

So, what is your reply to: "Perhaps you would care to offer a breakdown of casualties yourself, if you believe that the more US than Philippino troops became casualties?"

Cheers,

Sid.
Sid, you made the assertion regarding Filipinos (no one spells it with a Ph) in the Bataan campaign, as follows: "Even if you include the 8,000 Philipinos in the Scouts as US troops, the folowing would still apply:

.....and yet most of the front on Bataan was held most of the time by Philippino troops, who suffered most of the Allied casualties!"


You were asked to substantiate that contention. You have not done so yet; can you?

LAstry
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#84

Post by LAstry » 13 Feb 2022, 21:36

As for MAcArthur receing the MOH ...viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77481&p=2394003#p2394003 It was a political action of Course...Manchester Bio admits MacArthur only visted Bataan Once.....FDR realized (I think) that he had to keep the Image of MacArthur Liberating the Phillippines,,,,,to give the conquered people hope...hence an MOH.....

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#85

Post by daveshoup2MD » 14 Feb 2022, 00:45

LAstry wrote:
13 Feb 2022, 21:36
As for MAcArthur receing the MOH ...viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77481&p=2394003#p2394003 It was a political action of Course...Manchester Bio admits MacArthur only visted Bataan Once.....FDR realized (I think) that he had to keep the Image of MacArthur Liberating the Phillippines,,,,,to give the conquered people hope...hence an MOH.....
The thing this is, MacArthur could have said no to the MOH. FDR and GCM were correct in ordering him out, given his knowledge of (among other items) the US cryptanalysis efforts, but whether MacArthur deserved the SWPA theater command is an open question.

rcocean
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#86

Post by rcocean » 15 Feb 2022, 04:53

The thing this is, MacArthur could have said no to the MOH. FDR and GCM were correct in ordering him out, given his knowledge of (among other items) the US cryptanalysis efforts, but whether MacArthur deserved the SWPA theater command is an open question.
Why would Mac have said no to the MOH, when he knew that he was being given it to honor the men on Bataan/Corrigedor and for propaganda purposes including to counter Japanese accusations that he was "Running away"? The award wasn't personal. Its not like MacArthur took out a machine gun nest with his bare hands.

General Vangrift was given MOH for Guadacanal. The award was considered as one way reward the entire 1st Division.

paulrward
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#87

Post by paulrward » 15 Feb 2022, 05:25

Hello All :

On the other hand, in his previous service in the VeraCruz Expedition and in The Great War,
MacArthur had been awarded the Distinguished Service Cross Twice, and the Silver Star SEVEN
Times, as well as being recomended for the MOH Twice, once for service in Mexico, and the
second time for his service in the fighting for the Cote-de-Chattillon.

On both occasions, his MOH, though recommended by his direct superior officers, was blocked
by other officers on the staff, who, for the most part, remained in the rear, and never
saw combat. This became so infamous, that the staff around Pershing, who never went
to the Front even to observe, became known to the fighting soldiers as ' the Chaumont Gang '.
after the Chateau they were quartered in. One of these officers was George C. Marshall....

So, in a real sense, MacArthur's MOH was really the culmination of a career that had seen
him leading men into battle from the front, being repeatedly wounded, and never failing
to achieve the military objectives set for him by his superiors.


As for MacArthur spending so much time on Corregidor, and so little on Bataan, the primary
reason was because the U.S. Army in the Philippines had few field radios, and relied on field
telephones and telegraphs for signal work. As a result, every time MacArthur went onto
Bataan, he was essentially out of communication with his army, and could only pass messages
to the various commands with extreme difficulty, and in a time consuming manner. As they
say, in War, the Devil is in the Details...


Finally, as to the breakdown of the troops. When the final casualty lists were prepared after
the end of WW2, the best estimates of the Allied losses in the the 1942 Philippine Campaign
was about 23,000 American military personnel, and about 100,000 Filipino soldiers, were
killed or captured.

You can find this at

"American Prisoners of War in the Philippines," Office of the Provost Marshal, November 19, 1945,

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/ca ... eport.html


One final note: The expression, ' Dugout Doug ' did NOT originate in the Philippines in 1942,
but was rather from the Western Front in 1917. While the other officers were staying in the
rear, in French farmhouses and local hotels, MacArthur insisted on staying at the front with
this men, in effect, as the British would say, ' Sleeping Rough ' . As a result, his uniform was
invariably dirty, his boots caked with mud, and the fact that he won two Purple Hearts along
with the two DSCs and seven Silver Stars shows that he, like certain other revered leaders,
had never learned how to ' lead from the rear.... '. ' Dugout Doug ' was a term of respect and
admiration from his fellow officers and the enlisted men under his command.

His tendancy to always seek the front line, to ' see the enemy ', was so legendary that, in
the invasion of the Philippines in 1944, at one point he was leading a detachment of soldiers
and reporters up a trail, when he was informed by a nervous lieutenant that the troops had
just killed a Japanese Sniper along that very trail. MacArthur smiled, clapped the young officer
on the shoulder, and said, " Fine ! Fine ! That's what we should do to all of them ! " and
then continued moving forward.

At this point, an old, grizzled Sergeant loudly muttered, " This is a hell of thing- we've got a
four star General walking point on an infantry patrol ! "

MacArthur abruptly stopped, apologized to the Sergeant, and led the reporters back to the
rear area.


Even a Medal of Honor winner doesn't argue with a Sergeant.....


Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
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daveshoup2MD
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#88

Post by daveshoup2MD » 15 Feb 2022, 05:52

rcocean wrote:
15 Feb 2022, 04:53
The thing this is, MacArthur could have said no to the MOH. FDR and GCM were correct in ordering him out, given his knowledge of (among other items) the US cryptanalysis efforts, but whether MacArthur deserved the SWPA theater command is an open question.
Why would Mac have said no to the MOH, when he knew that he was being given it to honor the men on Bataan/Corrigedor and for propaganda purposes including to counter Japanese accusations that he was "Running away"? The award wasn't personal. Its not like MacArthur took out a machine gun nest with his bare hands. General Vangrift was given MOH for Guadacanal. The award was considered as one way reward the entire 1st Division.
Vandegrift was a divisional commander who was ashore on the day of the landing and combat commander inside the perimeter from August until the 1st Division was relieved; MacArthur was a theater commander in Manila or Corregidor during his first campaign, and then was a theater commander in Melbourne for most of his second ... with his wife and son at his side. Rough duty. Yeah, exactly like Guadalcanal. :roll:

daveshoup2MD
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#89

Post by daveshoup2MD » 15 Feb 2022, 06:12

paulrward wrote:
15 Feb 2022, 05:25

Finally, as to the breakdown of the troops. When the final casualty lists were prepared after
the end of WW2, the best estimates of the Allied losses in the the 1942 Philippine Campaign
was about 23,000 American military personnel, and about 100,000 Filipino soldiers, were
killed or captured.

You can find this at

"American Prisoners of War in the Philippines," Office of the Provost Marshal, November 19, 1945,

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/ca ... eport.html


Lot of men surrendered on Bataan; doesn't mean they were fighting it out in the front lines, does it? The KIA, WIA, and MW of the US (including the PS) and the PCA and PC, compared per capita to those on ration strength, is the measure.

https://bataanproject.com/dugout-doug/

The lyrics:

Dugout Doug MacArthur lies a shaking on the Rock

Safe from all the bombers and from any sudden shock

Dugout Doug is eating of the best food on Bataan

And his troops go starving on.

Dugout Doug’s not timid, he’s just cautious, not afraid

He’s protecting carefully the stars that Franklin made

Four-star generals are rare as good food on Bataan

And his troops go starving on.

Dugout Doug is ready in his Kris Craft for the flee

Over bounding billows and the wildly raging sea

For the Japs are pounding on the gates of Old Bataan

And his troops go starving on…

paulrward
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

#90

Post by paulrward » 15 Feb 2022, 10:19

Hello All ;

To Mr. Daveshoup2md :

Dugout Doug MacArthur lies a shaking on the Rock
Safe from all the bombers and from any sudden shock
Dugout Doug is eating of the best food on Bataan
And his troops go starving on.

Dugout Doug’s not timid, he’s just cautious, not afraid
He’s protecting carefully the stars that Franklin made
Four-star generals are rare as good food on Bataan
And his troops go starving on.

Dugout Doug is ready in his Kris Craft for the flee
Over bounding billows and the wildly raging sea
For the Japs are pounding on the gates of Old Bataan
And his troops go starving on…


This rather scurrilous song was composed by a pair of draftees from the 194th tank Battalion.
This Battalion had been formed from three National Guard Units that had been ' Federalized ',
and after brief training, were sent with their M-3 Stuart Light Tanks to the Philippines. To
say that the men in the unit were unhappy would be an understatement. Many of them were
draftees, often with families and financial responsibilities, who had signed up for the draft
and now they found themselves in the Jungles of the Philippines, and after December 7th,
they were at war in a garrison that had been abandoned by Roosevelt and Marshall. They
were embittered, angry, frustrated, and wanted nothing more than to find a way out, to get
home to their loved ones.

And, the song is pure BULLSHIT.

1. MacArthur was NEVER shaking on the Rock. He went ashore to Bataan whenever he could
and, on many occasions, during IJA and IJN bomber attacks, went ' topside ' to watch his
AA gunners fight back.

2. MacArthur was NOT eating of the best food on Bataan. In fact, he was hardly eating at
all. His wife and 4 year old son were also on Corregidor, but were not military personnel,
and so could draw no rations. So MacArthur gave his family HIS rations, which were split
between the two of them ( They were dividing about 1000 calories per day, frequently less)
and essentially, MacArthur starved himself. That is why , when you see the photos of him
taken right after his arrival in Australia, he is thin, gaunt, with a haggard face, and is leaning
on a cane for support.

3. MacArthur's four stars were NOT made by Franklin. He got them during the Hoover
Administration. Roosevelt tried to steal them from him, but, in the end, he failed.

4. MacArthur NEVER had a yacht to flee in. He left on a PT boat, one of four that was
tasked by the navy for the job. The boats were in such bad shape that one of them
broke down, and had to be left behind by the others. And it must be remembered:
MacArthur repeatedly kept delaying his departure from Corregidor, defying orders from
Marshall and Roosevelt, until they gave him no more options. They also deceived
MacArthur, informing him via radio, that he would be taking command of U.S. Forces
in Australia for the relief expedition to rescue the Philippines. Of course, this was
a lie, but no one lied better than Roosevelt, who, as MacArthur so cogently phrased
it, " ... always lied, even when the truth would have served him better . "


As for MacArthur's wife and son, go back and read his Autobiography. He and his
wife agreed that none of them were to be taken prisoner. Mr. Daveshoup2md, do
YOU have that kind of courage ?

And, after getting his family to Australia, he immediately began the New Guinea
Campaign. As I mentioned above, he was initially too sick and weak to go to
the front lines, but as soon as his health improved, he left his family behind, and
set up his headquarters on New Guinea. ( And , the bullshit you will hear about
it being ' palatial ' is just that - Eddie Rickenbacker spent a few days meeting
with MacArthur, and bringing him top secret orders from the Secretary of War, and
Rickenbacker described the place as being very primitive, nothing but rain soaked
tents and a complete lack of plumbing ! )


Mr. Daveshoup2md, I am attaching a pair of photos for your consideration. The
photo on the left is MacArthur on arriving in Australia. Note how thin his arms
and neck are. You can see the bones in his hands, and he is hunched over, leaning
on the cane so that he can walk. Is this the photo of a man who was ' eating of
the best food on Bataan...' ?

The photo on the right was taken at the end of the New Guinea Campaign, just
before the start of the Invasion of the Philippines - note how MacArthur is once
again standing straight and tall, he has filled out again, and his face is no longer
haggard and gaunt.

Looking at those two photos, no honest person could say that MacArthur did not
share the suffering of his men on Bataan and Corregidor.


Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
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MacArthur Photos
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