novice question on Pearl Harbour

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
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hauptmannn
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novice question on Pearl Harbour

#1

Post by hauptmannn » 20 Jul 2003, 17:31

I would like to know whether it would be accurate to say that Japanese aircraft sank 'much of the American Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbour'.

Was there such a thing as a Pacific fleet?

Was most of it in PH on Dec 7

Did the Japanese sink fifty percent or more of the ships in harbour that would justify the use of the word 'much'.

How significant was the role of the Japanese Navy i.e midgit subs?

Any info would be welcome.

ChristopherPerrien
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#2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 21 Jul 2003, 04:28

Welcome to the Forum, hauptman

No the Japanese only managed to sink 4 of 8 battleships, 2 were recovered, and very few other ships(2) were sunk ,
I would say about <20%(6 ships!).
Quite a bit of the Pacific Fleet was at Pearl, however all of the carriers and many cruisers and subs were elsewhere,




Here is a list from Warships1.com

The commissioned U.S. Navy ships in the list below are sorted by type and hull number, for example New Orleans (CA-32) is found in hull number order under heavy cruisers. For the purposes of this list, yard craft assigned to the Fourteenth Naval District and other small non-commissioned craft are not included. In addition, Pearl Harbor is defined as the area inside the nets guarding the harbor entrance.

Ships marked with an asterisk (*) were within twelve miles of the island of Oahu but were not actually within Pearl Harbor as defined above. Locations of these ships are indicated. Ships marked with a number symbol (#) were sunk or destroyed during the Pearl Harbor attack. All of these were later raised and rebuilt except for Arizona, Oklahoma, and Utah. Oklahoma was raised but not rebuilt.

The U.S. carriers were not at Pearl Harbor. On 28 November, Admiral Kimmel sent USS Enterprise under Rear Admiral Willliam Halsey to deliver Marine Corps fighter planes to Wake Island. On 4 December Enterprise delivered the aircraft and on December 7 the task force was on its way back to Pearl Harbor. On 5 December, Admiral Kimmel sent the USS Lexington with a task force under Rear Admiral Newton to deliver 25 scout bombers to Midway Island. The last Pacific carrier, USS Saratoga, had left Pearl Harbor for upkeep and repairs on the West Coast.

Battleships (BB) Pennsylvania (BB-38) (in drydock)
# Arizona (BB-39)
Nevada (BB-36)
# Oklahoma (BB-37)
Tennessee (BB-43)
# California (BB-44)
Maryland (BB-46)
# West Virginia (BB-48)

Heavy Cruisers (CA) New Orleans (CA-32)
San Francisco (CA-38)

Light Cruisers (CL) Raleigh (CL-7)
Detroit (CL-8)
Phoenix (CL-46)
Honolulu (CL-48)
St. Louis (CL-49)
Helena (CL-50

Destroyers (DD) Allen (DD-66)
Schley (DD-103)
Chew (DD-106)
* Ward (DD-139) (patrolling Channel entrance to
Pearl Harbor)
Dewey (DD-349)
Farragut (DD-348)
Hull (DD-350)
MacDonough (DD-351)
Worden (DD-352)
Dale (DD-353)
Monaghan (DD-354)
Aylwin (DD-355)
Selfridge (DD-357)
Phelps (DD-360)
Cummings (DD-365)
Reid (DD-369)
Case (DD-370)
Conyngham (DD-371)
Cassin (DD-372) (in drydock)
Shaw (DD-373) (in floating drydock)
Tucker (DD-374)
Downes (DD-375) (in drydock)
Bagley (DD-386)
Blue (DD-387)
Helm (DD-388)
Mugford (DD-389)
Ralph Talbot (DD-390)
Henley (DD-391)
Patterson (DD-392)
Jarvis (DD-393)

Submarines (SS) Narwhal (SS-167)
Dolphin (SS-169)
Cachalot (SS-170)
Tautog (SS-199)

Minelayer (CM) # Oglala (CM-4)

Minesweeper (AM) Turkey (AM-13)
Bobolink (AM-20)
Rail (AM-26)
Tern (AM-31)
Grebe (AM-43)
Vireo (AM-52)

Coastal Minesweeper (Amc)
Cockatoo (Amc-8)
Crossbill (Amc-9)
Condor (Amc-14)
Reedbird (Amc-30)

Destroyer Minelayer (DM)
Gamble (DM-15)
Ramsay (DM-16)
Montgomery (DM-17)
Breese (DM-18)
Tracy (DM-19)
Preble (DM-20)
Sicard (DM-21)
Pruitt (DM-22)

Destroyer Minesweeper (DMS)
Zane (DMS-14)
Wasmuth (DMS-15)
Trever (DMS-16)
Perry (DMS-17)

Patrol Gunboat (PG) Sacramento (PG-19)

Destroyer Tender (AD) Dobbin (AD-3)
Whitney (AD-4)

Seaplane Tender (AV) Curtiss (AV-4)
Tangier (AV-8)

Small Seaplane Tender (AVP)
Avocet (AVP-4)
Swan (AVP-7) (on marine railway
dock)

Seaplane Tender, Destroyer (AVD)
Hulbert (AVD-6)
Thornton (AVD-11)

Ammunition Ship (AE) Pyro (AE-1)

Oiler (AO) Ramapo (AO-12)
Neosho (AO-23)

Repair Ship (AR) Medusa (AR-1)
Vestal (AR-4)
Rigel (AR-11)

Submarine Tender (AS) Pelias (AS-14)

Submarine Rescue Ship (ASR) Widgeon (ASR-1)

Hospital Ship (AH) Solace (AH-5)

Cargo Ship (AK) * Vega (AK-17) (at Honolulu)

Stores Issue Ship (AKS) Castor (AKS-1)
* Antares (AKS-3) (at Pearl Harbor entrance)

Ocean Tug (AT) Ontario (AT-13)
Sunnadin (AT-28)
* Keosanqua (AT-38) (at Pearl Harbor entrance)
* Navajo (AT-64) (12 miles outside Pearl Harbor entrance)

Miscellaneous Auxiliary (AG)
# Utah (AG-16)
Argonne (AG-31)
Sumner (AG-32)


The link to this site is http://www.warships1.com/
go to pearl harbor references that should keep you busy for a while


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hauptmannn
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ChristopherPerrien

#3

Post by hauptmannn » 21 Jul 2003, 12:47

Thank you for the info ChristopherPerrien.

It answers my questions.

(p.s. I heard a rumour that speeders are a little ticked off with your recent public proposal) :wink:

Vinnie O
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US Pacific Fleet

#4

Post by Vinnie O » 21 Jul 2003, 23:14

Prior to 1939, The Fleet was based in the Atlantic.

At the end of a Fleet exercise in 1939, FDR ordered the US Navy to leave the ships that had participated in the exercise permanently in the Pacific. This included some number of battleships and aircraft carriers. There had been such things as The Asiatic Squadron, which included nothing larger than a cruiser.

The new Pacific Fleet (were caused the stay-behinds to become The Atlantic Fleet by reverse construction) was then based at Pearl Harbor, rather than San Diego or San Francisco, again by orders of FDR.

This was clearly intended as a threatening move against the Japanese, and was so interpretted.

The Pacific Fleet got something like the "middle aged" ships. The 16-inch COLORADO class battleships and their 14-inch near sisters were all with the Pacific Fleet. These were the newest capital ships until North Carolina and Washington came out, both of which went to the Atlantic. The Pacific had the old Nevada, with only 10 x 14-inch, but the Atlantic had the even older Texas, with 12-inch guns.

Similarly, the Pacific had the old (and large) Saratoga and Lexington while the Atlantic got Wasp, Ranger, and Hornet. However Hornet's sisters Enterprise and Yorktown were in the Pacific.

There was a plan to move the bulk of the Atlantic Fleet to the Pacific after 7 December. The moves had not been completed before Wake Island fell. and the Navy concluded that it would be a "long" war.

The US Navy then managed the ships with the aim of avoiding major combat prior to 1943 when the new battleships and aircraft carriers would be available. Perhaps the best indication of this is that the Pacific Fleet owned a NINTH battleship: USS Colorado. Colorado was not bombed at Pearl Harbor because it was undergoing overhaul in Seattle. That overhaul was rushed to completion, but then the Navy decided to send Colorado, the mostly modern and powerful ship the Pacific Fleet owned, BACK into overhaul rather than sending it on to Pearl Harbor.

The US Navy was NEVER short of ships during WW2. We had something like 18 battleships on 6 December and something like 15 battleships by Christmas, 1941.

A clear indication of this is that the US Navy had THREE battleships at the Battle of Midway. Colorado was one of these ships. They are not normally discussed as because they didn't fire their guns, but they in fact acted as the "deep reserve" and were assigned to intercept a continuation of the Midway attack if it continued on towards Hawaii.

The United States had any number of battleships operating in the area around Guadacanal, too. However many of them were assigned as convoy escorts waiting for non-existent Japanese surface raiders and the Navy only allowed the newly constructed ships to enter combat.

Oh, some people argue that only the new battleships could keep up with the carriers. This is seriously flawed. The carriers were tied to their oil tankers and could not steam any serious distance without them. The tankers could make perhaps 15 knots on a good day, much less for the older tankers. Carriers therefore tended to steam in patterns that arced forward and then swept back, meeting the tankers every day or 2. The old battleships had no problem keeping up with the tankers and by 1944 were provding SUBSTANTIAL anti-aircraft protection to the carriers.

So, Pearl Harbor is the most devasting defeat every suffered by the US Navy, is the worst loss suffered by ANY modern fleet, and didn't make any substantial difference to the actual balance of power in the Pacific. We ALWAYS had the Japanese outnumbered. Between 1941 and 1945 the RATIO just went up.

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Sam H.
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#5

Post by Sam H. » 25 Jul 2003, 18:27

A clear indication of this is that the US Navy had THREE battleships at the Battle of Midway. Colorado was one of these ships. They are not normally discussed as because they didn't fire their guns, but they in fact acted as the "deep reserve" and were assigned to intercept a continuation of the Midway attack if it continued on towards Hawaii.
Ok, what were the other two battleships at Midway?

The Colorado was positioned between Hawai and the US Pacific Coast, hudreds of miles away ... it would be hard pressed to consider it at the Battle.

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Takao
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#6

Post by Takao » 25 Jul 2003, 20:06

I believe the other two were the USS Maryland and USS Tennessee.

Pressed for time right now, but will try and post more later.

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Sam H.
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#7

Post by Sam H. » 25 Jul 2003, 21:16

Takao wrote:I believe the other two were the USS Maryland and USS Tennessee.

Pressed for time right now, but will try and post more later.
I double checked a few things, you may be correct on the Battleship names, but they were certainly far from the battle, having sailed from US Pacific Coast ports on May 31st or later.

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