Your logic is really twisted. All people who don't share your wrong opinion are young and experienced. Is it arrogance or simply your stupidity (sorry to say so) that lets you insulting other men? You are talking about life experience but you still seem to lack even the basics of conduct. Typical characteristics of a forum troll.Aufklarung wrote:Poxsellis
Again, where exactly was I being insulting to Leica? His (aand your) views seem poorly grounded in reality so it would seem you are young and inexperienced. Get out of the books and see what the world is really like. If that's an insult then I'm wasting my time with you.
David
Sorry if you think I was insulting. I don't see that but .....that's your right.
regards
A
Hiroshima - The 58th Anniversary
Re: Hiroshima - The 58th Anniversary
David Brown wrote:Poxsellis wrote:Learn to read.David Brown wrote:Why is it someone ALWAYS has to come along with some dumb and stupid insult to another poster.Poxsellis wrote:Leica is correct. Your insulting statement is both superflous and wrong, but throws a light on your twisted view.
IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH SOMEONE OR WHAT THEY ARE SAYING BY ALL MEANS HAVE A GO AT THE ARGUMENT BUT DON'T LOWER IT TO INSULTS AND SNIDE REMARKS.
Dave
Another insult! I've been called worse by some members of the Forum, but at least they had the decency to do it in style. Keep going though, the quicker you get yourself banned the better.
Dave
I fail to see where he insulted you. On the other side you are attacking him without any reason. I think you spammed enough, now lets come back to the original topic: to mourn the victims of a war crime.
Last edited by Leica on 06 Aug 2003, 23:19, edited 1 time in total.
-
David Brown
- Member
- Posts: 792
- Joined: 20 Apr 2003, 01:46
- Location: Prescot on Merseyside in England.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you cannot take opposing views without derisory comments like this you should look to taking some of your own medicine.Leica wrote:I'm quite happy that there are still people out there, who don't accept the rubbish you and some other guys are producing at its best. I haven't seen any serious argument from you, since i opened this thread. So do me a favor: if you don't have anything useful to contribute, stop spamming in this thread.Caldric wrote:Hmm. Strange Poxsellis do you have something to add or is it just a rant against the people that disagree with Mister Lieca?
Dave
-
Aufklarung
- Member
- Posts: 5136
- Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 05:27
- Location: Canada
Now you're being insulting to me. I better tell Poxsellis so he can come in on my side.Your logic is really twisted. All people who don't share your wrong opinion are young and experienced. Is it arrogance or simply your stupidity (sorry to say so) that lets you insulting other men? You are talking about life experience but you still seem to lack even the basics of conduct. Typical characteristics of a forum troll.
I see I'll not get any sense from you. Your arguments have been shredded by better members than I and I happen to agree with them. Why would I re-post the same info?
If you have nothing left but insults then we are through. Have a better day.
A
Last edited by Aufklarung on 06 Aug 2003, 23:22, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry but you are really laughable. You turn the truth until it fits into your cheap style of argumentation. The only useful advice is to ignore you - something i will do from now on.David Brown wrote:What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you cannot take opposing views without derisory comments like this you should look to taking some of your own medicine.Leica wrote:I'm quite happy that there are still people out there, who don't accept the rubbish you and some other guys are producing at its best. I haven't seen any serious argument from you, since i opened this thread. So do me a favor: if you don't have anything useful to contribute, stop spamming in this thread.Caldric wrote:Hmm. Strange Poxsellis do you have something to add or is it just a rant against the people that disagree with Mister Lieca?
Dave
@Nick: Sorry, but this thread (which was originally for mourning the victims has been turned in a flaming place by the usual suspects).
Not a single argument has been shredded. You have flooded this thread and perverted it to spam and insults. Simple as that. This forum seems to be the wrong place for a balanced and civilized discussion indeed.Aufklarung wrote:Now you're being insulting to me. I better tell Poxsellis so he can come in on my side.
I see I'll not get any sense from you. Your arguments have been shredded by better members than I and I happen to agree with them. Why would I re-post the same info?
If you have nothing left but insults then we are through. Have a better day.
A
-
Aufklarung
- Member
- Posts: 5136
- Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 05:27
- Location: Canada
The following was Trumans response to Georgia Senator who wished to bomb Japan until they begged for mercy. To say Truman had no clue of the suffereing bombing was causing or that he only wished to kill for the sake of it is just silly. The man had a deep belief in religion and felt much sympathy with the Japanese people. However as the leader of a Nation at war he understood that he had to do what was needed. You only feel emotion Lieca, you have no understanding of the men that carried out the burden of WWII nor do you care to. You have one agenda and that is the reduction of Allies to war criminals for them all.
http://www.trumanlibrary.org
I will write it out for easier reading:
August 9, 1945
Dear Dicks
I read your telegram of August seventh with a lot of interest.
I know that Japan is a terribly cruel and uncivilized nation in warfare but I can’t bring myself to believe that, because they are beasts, we should ourselves act in the same manner.
For myself, I certainly regret the necessity of wiping out whole populations because of the pigheadedness of the leaders of a nation and, for your information, I am not going to do it unless it is absolutely necessary. It is my opinion that after the Russians enter into the war the Japanese will very shortly fold up.
My objective is to save as many American lives as possible but I also have a humane feeling for the women and children of Japan.
Sincerely your,
Harry S. Truman
Here is the Senators letter to Truman on Aug 7th.
Truman clearly put the senator in his place and made it clear there would be no killing for the sake of killing or punishment. He wanted JAPAN to QUIT.
http://www.trumanlibrary.org
I will write it out for easier reading:
August 9, 1945
Dear Dicks
I read your telegram of August seventh with a lot of interest.
I know that Japan is a terribly cruel and uncivilized nation in warfare but I can’t bring myself to believe that, because they are beasts, we should ourselves act in the same manner.
For myself, I certainly regret the necessity of wiping out whole populations because of the pigheadedness of the leaders of a nation and, for your information, I am not going to do it unless it is absolutely necessary. It is my opinion that after the Russians enter into the war the Japanese will very shortly fold up.
My objective is to save as many American lives as possible but I also have a humane feeling for the women and children of Japan.
Sincerely your,
Harry S. Truman
Here is the Senators letter to Truman on Aug 7th.
Truman clearly put the senator in his place and made it clear there would be no killing for the sake of killing or punishment. He wanted JAPAN to QUIT.
Last edited by Caldric on 06 Aug 2003, 23:38, edited 1 time in total.
-
Aufklarung
- Member
- Posts: 5136
- Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 05:27
- Location: Canada
Good luck.
Leica
You seem to fail to understand why others have become so emotive to this posting. You call for a civil and balanced argument when your first posting was quite obviously provocative and biased to your own personal opinion.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the tragic deaths of thousands of innocents at Hiroshima, all you want to do is condemn it a war crime so that you provoke a response.
At the same time you ignore all the facts as to what led the USA to use this level of extreme force in the first place.
The use of force in the circumstance can obviously be justified. What should be debated here is “ was this extreme level of force absolutely necessary in the circumstance ? ? “.
Not some rant and tirade of condemning the USA as a bunch of war criminals.
This is a ridiculous and quite frankly rubbish statement. It was an act of war brought about by the Japanese acts of aggression that led thousands of lives lost by British & American Servicemen not to mention indigenous Pacific islanders in the Pacific Theatre.
It is quite clear that you have some ulterior motive here. If it continues the thread will be locked.
You seem to fail to understand why others have become so emotive to this posting. You call for a civil and balanced argument when your first posting was quite obviously provocative and biased to your own personal opinion.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the tragic deaths of thousands of innocents at Hiroshima, all you want to do is condemn it a war crime so that you provoke a response.
At the same time you ignore all the facts as to what led the USA to use this level of extreme force in the first place.
The use of force in the circumstance can obviously be justified. What should be debated here is “ was this extreme level of force absolutely necessary in the circumstance ? ? “.
Not some rant and tirade of condemning the USA as a bunch of war criminals.
This is a ridiculous and quite frankly rubbish statement. It was an act of war brought about by the Japanese acts of aggression that led thousands of lives lost by British & American Servicemen not to mention indigenous Pacific islanders in the Pacific Theatre.
It is quite clear that you have some ulterior motive here. If it continues the thread will be locked.
Leica,
I have always believed people do not try to think as people did in 1940's, they try to use modern ideals on a historical event, that just does not work very well. Modern emotional thinking was alien back then, hell people are emotional about buying a pair of shoes these days. Most Americans in WWII had the mindset of total destruction of Japan and Germany, total war to the death the survivor left standing, sympathy and compassion can come after surrender. Today we are somewhat I suppose one might say civilized, or at least we like to pretend we are. We care when we think of children starving in Africa or oppression in Asia, in 1940 people did not think to much of someone starving in Tennessee much less Africa. Black men were practical slaves in the United States, Germany were feeding civilians by the tens of thousands into furnaces and gas chambers, Japan was using live human populations for medical and BC warfare experiments. These ideas of touchy feely thinking were a major minority in the first half of this century. In today’s way of thinking I could easily claim that even fighting back against Japan was wrong, we should have just allowed them to do whatever they wished and be pacifist, not isolationist but pacifist.
In order to understand such events of the magnitude of WWII a person must first remove modern day prejudice and moral thinking. WWII was a brutal barbaric war, people try to make it out as some fantastical event of heroic proportions. In reality it was the slaughter of millions in a very short amount of time, a slaughter by so many ingenious methods that it escapes the imagination. In reality the Atomic bomb may have been a more humane weapon then fire bombing, at least for the majority of victims it is over in a flash of light. We should be thankful Atomic weapons came in 1945 and not 1941. In the ideas of 1945 dropping the bomb for many was just a natural progression of the war. You quote Ike talking about Japan when he is stripping German POW’s of their rights as surrendered soldiers, rather or not it was a needed evil he has little to say about Truman, his statements like most that you have posted are nothing more then political. He would have nuked Berlin had he been given the chance.
And do not think for one second if tables were reversed it would be different. Japan would have killed every man women and child in the United States for victory.
I have always believed people do not try to think as people did in 1940's, they try to use modern ideals on a historical event, that just does not work very well. Modern emotional thinking was alien back then, hell people are emotional about buying a pair of shoes these days. Most Americans in WWII had the mindset of total destruction of Japan and Germany, total war to the death the survivor left standing, sympathy and compassion can come after surrender. Today we are somewhat I suppose one might say civilized, or at least we like to pretend we are. We care when we think of children starving in Africa or oppression in Asia, in 1940 people did not think to much of someone starving in Tennessee much less Africa. Black men were practical slaves in the United States, Germany were feeding civilians by the tens of thousands into furnaces and gas chambers, Japan was using live human populations for medical and BC warfare experiments. These ideas of touchy feely thinking were a major minority in the first half of this century. In today’s way of thinking I could easily claim that even fighting back against Japan was wrong, we should have just allowed them to do whatever they wished and be pacifist, not isolationist but pacifist.
In order to understand such events of the magnitude of WWII a person must first remove modern day prejudice and moral thinking. WWII was a brutal barbaric war, people try to make it out as some fantastical event of heroic proportions. In reality it was the slaughter of millions in a very short amount of time, a slaughter by so many ingenious methods that it escapes the imagination. In reality the Atomic bomb may have been a more humane weapon then fire bombing, at least for the majority of victims it is over in a flash of light. We should be thankful Atomic weapons came in 1945 and not 1941. In the ideas of 1945 dropping the bomb for many was just a natural progression of the war. You quote Ike talking about Japan when he is stripping German POW’s of their rights as surrendered soldiers, rather or not it was a needed evil he has little to say about Truman, his statements like most that you have posted are nothing more then political. He would have nuked Berlin had he been given the chance.
And do not think for one second if tables were reversed it would be different. Japan would have killed every man women and child in the United States for victory.
Yes and I sounded pretty bleak about the 1940's, but in truth no matter how people try to twist the Western Allies as some horde of criminals it is just wrong.Andy H wrote:Hi Caldric
You make some pertainent points, especially in regards to hindsight effecting our judgements on events that most here didn't experience, and trying to attach modern day morales and attitudes that didn't exist during WW2.
Andy
After Japanese surrendered some of the first things to arrive from the allies were humanitarian supplies, penicillin, food, doctors, heavy equipment to clean up the destruction, same for Germany. That was almost unheard of in history, they victors did not just give the scraps left from the war to the defeated but spent major resources to help relieve the suffering. These were major efforts, there is a great deal of truth when it is said Japan was rebuilt by the United States.