*Experimental SELF-PROPELLED GUNS of the Allies - help!*

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BIGpanzer
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Soviet SU-5 SP guns, based on light tank T-26 chassis

Post by BIGpanzer » 18 Apr 2005 11:46

I already posted (see above) short information about experimental Soviet AA SP gun SU-6 (1935) – 76,2mm AA gun 3K mod.1931 on light tank T-26 chassis, 5 were produced.

Here is additional info I found about another Soviet SP guns of 1930s, based on light tank T-26 chassis. Soviet engineers developed many experimental SP guns for infantry, cavalry and tanks support, many of them were based on serial trucks, several on tractors, but even heavy 152mm mortar on medium tank T-28 existed. But the most well known of experimental and low-series Soviet SP guns of 1930s were the SU-5 “Small triplex” – universal gun-carriage, based on light tank T-26 chassis, but with engine located in the middle of the hull, not in the stern as T-26. Those were one of the most powerful of serial SP guns in the world in 1930s.

SU-5-1 had 76,2mm divisional gun mod.1902/1930; SU-5-2 was armed with 122mm divisional howitzer mod. 1910/1930 and SU-5-3 was armed with 153mm divisional mortar mod. 1931.
All produced SU-5 were successfully tested in the army, they could fire only from the stationary positions. They were added to the Soviet armory as experimental vehicles. Also the special carrier for ammunition, based on the same chassis, was produced.

SU-5-1 (6 were produced in 1934; half-opened 76,2mm SP gun; crew – 5 men; range of fire – 8760 m; rate of fire – 12 shells/min; ammunition – 8 shells; armor – 6-15 mm; weight – 10 t; engine – 90 hp; speed – 30 km/h; range – 170 km).

SU-5-2 (6 were produced in 1937; half-opened 122mm SP gun; crew – 5 men; range of fire – 7680 m; rate of fire – 5-6 shells/min; ammunition – 4 shells; armor – 6-15 mm; weight – 10 t; engine – 90 hp; speed – 30 km/h; range – 170 km).

SU-5-3 (3 were produced in 1934; half-opened 152,4mm SP gun; crew – 5 men; range of fire – 5285 m; rate of fire – 4-5 shells/min; ammunition – 4 shells; armor – 6-15 mm; weight – 10 t; engine – 90 hp; speed – 30 km/h; range – 170 km).

Also the experimental SU-1 was developed in 1931, also was based on T-26 chassis. 1 was produced. SU-1 was a completely armored SP gun with 76,2mm regimental gun mod. 1927 and 2 x 7,62mm MG; crew – 3 men; rate of fire – 10 shells/min; ammunition – 35 shells; armor – 6-13 mm; weight – 8 t; engine – 90 hp; speed – 30 km/h; range – 140 km.

In 1933-1934 the “artillery tank” AT-1 with 76,2mm tank gun PS-3, also based on T-26 chassis was developed, it had the hinged out sides and tailgate. 10 were produced in 1936 as regimental SP guns. AT-1 was a completely armored SP gun with 76,2mm tank gun and 2 x 7,62mm MG; crew – 3 men; ammunition – 40 shells + 1827 MG shells; armor – 6-15 mm; weight – 9,6 t; engine – 90 hp; speed – 30 km/h; range – 170 km.


If anybody knows the facts of using those SP guns during WWII (in 1941?), please, let me know.

Photo of the Soviet light SPG SU-5-2 with 122mm howitzer:
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... _5_2_2.jpg
Drawing of the SU-5-2: http://mk-armour.narod.ru/2003/b_02/Draw_18.jpg

Photo of the Soviet light SPG SU-5-3 with 152,4mm mortar:
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... _5_3_3.jpg

Photo of the Soviet SPG with 76,2mm anti-aircraft gun SU-5-1 (1934, 6 copies)
is from http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries
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Soviet "artillery tank" AT-1

Post by BIGpanzer » 18 Apr 2005 11:56

The photo of the Soviet light 122mm SP gun SU-5-2 (military parade, Khabarovsk):
http://khasan-district.narod.ru/history ... su_5_2.jpg

The photo of the Soviet light 76,2mm SP gun SU-1
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/2003/b_02/Photo_41.jpg


I found the good photo of AT-1 (specifications see in my previous letter)

Photo of the Soviet "artillery tank" AT-1 (1936, 10 copies)
is from http://www.shift.sk/military/sifoner/mil/at_1.jpg
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Post by BIGpanzer » 18 Apr 2005 12:07

I found the info that several SU-5 (which type SU-5-1, SU-5-2 or SU-5-3, I don't know) were used in 1939 during the Soviet invasion of Poland. Also SU-5s were in service (some tank brigades had them) in June 1941 - several were in Western military districts, several - in Far-eastern military districts.

Also Soviets used SU-12 SP gun during the Soviet-Finnish (Winter) war and Soviet-Japanese military conflicts. SU-12 was the 76,2mm regimental gun, mounted on GAZ-AAA and "Moreland" truck chassis, 99 were serially produced till 1935.

Picture of the SU-12: http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/sau_dr/su12_2.gif
Photo of the Soviet 76,2mm SP gun SU-12 (military parade in Moscow, 99 copies were produced):
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/sau_dr/su12_4.jpg

Regards, BIGpanzer
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Soviet super-light battalion SP gun of engineer Karateev

Post by BIGpanzer » 18 Apr 2005 18:53

When I tried to find some more info about Soviet SP guns of interwar period, I read the short mention about Soviet battalion SP gun "Arsenalets", developed by engineer Karateev and built in 1927. That was the very light caterpillar chassis with removable 45mm battalion gun (weight 500-550 kg; range of fire 3500 m; engine 10-12 hp; speed 5-8 km/h; range 17,5 km; dimensions 2,43 x 0,8 x 1 m; clearance 0,2 m; ammunition 50 shells) for closely support of infantry battalion. The cross-country ability of the chassis with rubber noiseless tracks was very high. There was no place for the driver, so he went behind the SP gun and operated it with rods (remote control :D ). Probably, only one such extremely light SP gun was built (by Leningrad engineering plant "Krasny arsenal") and tested.

Also in 1920s the design office of the famous Russian artillery engineer F.F. Lender developed different regimental SPG, one of the project had two aviation engines (one for each track) and flexible swivel chassis (!) for increasing the cross-country ability. In 1925 "Krasny arsenal" built experimental 76mm AA SPG of Lender`s-type, based on caterpillar tractor (weight 10 t, dimensions 4.8x1.7x3.2 m, angle of elevation 0-75 grades, horizontal angle - all-round). SPG towed a trailer with 192 shells and 6 artillerymen.
Also Karateev designed 76mm regimental SPG on special chassis, three were build.

Please, any photos or drawings of that unique battalion SP gun, if possible!
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Post by BIGpanzer » 18 Apr 2005 20:01

I am a little bit wondering that there are no replies from the competent guys from France and Russia......... :( :)

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Post by BIGpanzer » 18 Apr 2005 22:48

I found the image of the Soviet Karateev's experimental super light 45mm battalion SP gun (!!!!! 8) ), I wrote about it shortly above.
What is your opinion about such design of the SP gun 8O :D ?

Picture of the Soviet battalion SPG of N.V. Karateev (1927, 1 copy)
is from http://www.fortification.ru/library/artmuseum


Regards, BIGpanzer
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Michael Emrys
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Post by Michael Emrys » 19 Apr 2005 04:35

BIGpanzer wrote:What is your opinion about such design of the SP gun 8O :D ?


That it's not hard to see why development did not go beyond a single prototype!

:lol:

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Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Apr 2005 09:38

:D
I read that engineer Karateev thought that his 45mm battalion SP gun had many advantages: small weight, removable gun and ability for transportation by light truck. Also the cross-country ability was quite high. But to imagine the attacking infantry battalion with the support of several such guns is not easy :D :D
AFAIK three Karateev's 76mm regimental SP guns were built in 1925, but I know nothing about their design.

As for the 45mm battalion SPG I`ve written above - its production was rejected mainly because of the lack of the special 10hp engines for it.
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Soviet super heavy SP guns of 1930s - short review

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Apr 2005 11:53

As I shortly mentioned before the Soviets developed also medium SP guns in 1930s. For example, experimental SU-8 (76,2mm AA gun 3K, mounted openly on T-28 medium tank chassis) was built in 1935.
But the most powerful among Soviet experimental SP guns of 1930s were the heavy SP guns SU-14 and SU-100Y – really unique AFVs for their time.

Experimental SU-14 was built in 1934 as heavy SP gun of mechanized units for destruction of strengthened fortifications. Specifications: weight 48,5 t; crew 7 men; armament 203mm howitzer B-4 mod. 1931 (range of fire 18 km with 100 kg shell, rate of fire 1 shot/5,7 min) + 3 x 7,62mm MG; ammunition 8 shells + 2268 MG shells; armor 10-20 mm; engine M-17 500 hp; speed 27,3 km/h; range 100-120 km. Its maneuverability and speed were satisfactory; also the operation with the howitzer was convenient. But its size was large and armor was insufficient. Also SU-14 had the problems with overdriven transmission.

SU-14 was based on the T-28 and T-35 transmission and chassis elements, engine located in front, howitzer was openly mounted. SU-14 was equipped with two 200 kg cranes for the ammunition, two spades and had suspension, disconnected during the firing; so it could fire only from the stationary positions.

SU-14 was tested in 1935 and its engine and transmission were modified (improved SU-14-1 was built in 1936 - it had better and more reliable transmission, improved spades, more powerful engine M-17F 680 hp.). On both SPGs 203mm howitzer was replaced by 152,4mm naval gun B-30 and Br-2 (which had better range and rate of fire) in 1936. It was planned to produce 5 copies with 152.4mm gun Br-2 (SU-14-2) but that plan was rejected because of the arrest of the chief engineers of the project.

In 1940 one of two SU-14-2 was equipped with additional armor plates, gun was armored also. SU-14 was renamed as SU-14-Br2 (weight 64 t; armament 152,4mm gun + 4 x 7,62mm MG; ammunition 16 shells + 2655 MG shells; armor 20-50 mm; speed 15 km/h; range 100 km). SU-14-2 had the radio station.

After that SU-14 was used quite successfully for the destruction of Finnish fortifications during the Winter War. Also it was used during the battle of Moscow in 1941.
Now SU-14-2 is preserving at Russian tank museum (Kubinka).

Photos of the Soviet 203mm SPG SU-14:
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su14/su14_7.jpg
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su14/su14_8.jpg (during the firing)

Photo of the Soviet 152,4mm SPG SU-14-2 with additional armor:
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su14/su14_2.jpg
http://www.redtanks.bos.ru/gallery/su14/su14_2.jpg

Photo of the Soviet heavy SPG SU-14 (1934, 2 copies)
is from http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/BeforeWWII/SU14/


Photo of the Soviet heavy SPG SU-14-Br2 (1940, 1 copy)
is from http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/BeforeWWII/SU14/


To be continued............. 8)
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SU-14 super heavy SP gun (additional info)

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Apr 2005 14:23

In 1936 the new experimental SP gun SU-14-1 was built and tested. It was the improved version of SU-14 with transmission from T-35 heavy tank (not from T-28 medium tank as in the case of SU-14), more powerful engine, modernized spades and without of ineffective suspension, disconnected during the firing.

Specifications: weight 48,1 t; crew 7 men; armament 203mm howitzer B-4 mod. 1931 + 4 x 7,62mm MGs; ammunition 8 shells + 2196 MG shells; armor 6-20 mm; engine M-17F 700 (850?) hp; speed 30-35 km/h; range 120-150 km. Additional artillery tractor “Comintern” was used as ammunition carrier (50-60 shells) for SU-14-1.

In 1936 203mm howitzer was also replaced by 152,4mm gun Br-2 mod.1935 with better range and rate of fire. SU-14-1 was equipped with radio station and additional armor in 1940 for using during the Winter War against Finnish fortifications (Mannerheim line) from a short distance. That SP gun was renamed as SU-14-Br2 (weight 65 t; speed 22 km/h; ammunition 16-32 shells + 2835 MG shells; armor 20-50 mm; additional fuel tanks increased range up to 130-150 km; dimensions 10 x 3,37 x 3,56 m). It was used quite successfully during the battle of Moscow in 1941 and was the predecessor of heavy SP guns of WWII period.

SU-14-Br2 is preserving now at Russian tank museum (Kubinka):
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su14/su14_9.jpg
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su14/su14_23.jpg

Good drawing of the SU-14-Br2: http://mk-armour.narod.ru/1995/02/Draw_21.jpg
Photos of SU-14-1 with 203mm howitzer:
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su14/su14_6.jpg
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su14/su14_5.jpg
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Post by Petrus » 19 Apr 2005 14:33

Some people have posted here pictures showing self-propelled guns based on Carden-Loyd tankette chassis, most of which if not all remained prototypes. There was however another vehicle of the kind that did see service. I mean a self-propelled anti-tank gun that was built in Belgium early in the 1950s using the Loyd-carrier chassis.
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Post by Michael Emrys » 19 Apr 2005 16:48

BIGpanzer,

Once again very intriguing information and photographs. :) But do you know if any of these SPA ever went into series production? Or were they just one-off experimental models?

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Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Apr 2005 19:54

Hello, Petrus!
Thank you very much for the info and interesting photos. What was the designation of that Belgian 90mm AT SP gun, based on Carden-Loyd tankette (or, probably, on Universal Carrier?) chassis? I am not very experienced in post-WWII AFVs, so would like to read more about it.

Yes, I've posted here some photos of experimental SP guns of 1930s, based on Carden-Loyd tankette chassis. Indeed most of them were the prototypes, that is why I called my post "unique self-propelled guns" to find more info about them and present it here to all forum members.
By the way, do you know something (especially about their using in 1939, if so) about four Polish TKD tankettes (TKS tankette with 47mm gun wz.25 "Pocisk" instead of wz.25 MG), which were built in Poland in 1932. I posted some short info and the photo of TKD here, see above.

Regards, BIGpanzer

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Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Apr 2005 20:09

Hello, Grease_Spot!
Thank you for the letter! :)
AFAIK Soviet heavy SP guns SU-14 and SU-100Y remained experimental and never went into series production, only two SU-14 and one SU-100Y were produced. But they successfully used during the Winter War in 1940 (but some sources report that they had no time to participate in Winter War), training tank manoeuvres in 1940 (Ukraine) and battle of Moscow in winter 1941/1942 (consisting of "separate heavy division of special purpose"). Su-14-Br2 and SU-100Y are preserved now at Russian Tank Museum (Kubinka, Moscow region), as I've read recently. SU-14-1 was destroyed as scrap metal in 1960s :(
The reasons were the following as me seems - they used experimental, not serial chassis (especially SU-100Y) and were overweight. They couldn't support fast cavalry and tank units. The important reason was also that the chief engineer of those heavy SP guns P.Syachentov was repressed and executed during the Stalin's repressions in 1937. But the plan of starting series production of SU-14-Br2 since 1938 really existed, but it was abandoned.

During the WWII several experimental open-type heavy 152,4mm & 203mm SP guns, based on heavy tank KV chassis, were built (the same design as SU-14). But the series produced and widely used Soviet heavy SP guns were only full armored SU-152 (671 copies), ISU-152 and ISU-122 (4635 copies).

Regards, BIGpanzer
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SU-100Y super heavy SP gun

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Apr 2005 21:18

SU-100Y was built in 1940 as the full armored heavy SP gun with 130mm naval gun, based on the experimental heavy tank T-100 chassis.
Specifications: weight 64 t; speed 35 km/h; armor 20-60 mm; armament 130mm B-13 gun (rate of fire 4 shells/min; 36 kg shell) + 3 x 7,62mm MG; ammunition 30-60 shells + 1890 MG shells; engine GAM-34-BT 890 hp; crew 6 men; range 210 km. SU-100Y had the radio station.

It was used during the Soviet-Finnish (Winter) war (probably) and during the Battle of Moscow in winter 1941/1942 (for sure). SU-100Y is preserving at Kubinka tank museum in Russia.

SU-100Y was very powerful and quite maneuverable SP gun, which could effectively destroy fortifications and heavy tanks. But it was overweight and had large size (10,9 x 3,4 x 3,29 m), also the configuration of the cabin was unsuccessful. Just imagine if those Soviet heavy “Jagdtigers” were series produced in large amounts and met German Panzers II-IV in 1941 8O 8O :D !

Photo of the Soviet heavy SPG SU-100Y (1940, 1 copy)
is from http://yukon47.narod.ru/Thematic_Wallpa ... a_tehnika/


Photo of the preserved SU-100Y (Kubinka tank museum, Russia):
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su100y/su100y_2.jpg
http://bronetehnika.narod.ru/su100y/su100y_5.jpg[/img]
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