Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Need help with translating WW1, Inter-War or WW2 related documents or information?
Karl61
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Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Karl61 » 18 Dec 2019 08:11

Sorry for bugging but I've owned this for more yrs than I can count, it's in storage now so this is the only shot I have right now.
From 2/SS GERMAINA, not sure if this guy went on to become someone special or died. But if you could translate it as I've lost all info I had on it many yrs ago. I know it's very rare as I haven't as I've seen another. The items on the frame I moved long ago but kept this large format doc as I've never seen one. It's in storage for the last 10+ yrs and will get it out if needed, l can get better shots but that's a drive in a half so if you can help with what I'm showing that would be great. Tks and sorry...
I had to lower the file size, but can mail a better one if need.
Not sure who signed it nor anything else, I've been out of collecting for a long time, so even if someone can pm me as it's value that'd help too as I'm getting old and it might need a better home where it's respected. I paid a premium way back do to its rarity and unit etc.

Tks.
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Hohlladung
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Hohlladung » 19 Dec 2019 15:08

Hi Karl,

This document is an ownership certificate for excellent marksmanship.
The image is not very good, as the photo was taken with the "certificate" still inside the frame and under glass.

I write "certificate" with quotation marks, because in my opinion this thing is a fantasy product, they
produce for flea markets or sale on platforms like eBay, etc.

I don´t know, if there ever was a SS-Scharführer Hoffmeister, but to address him in the "certificate" as Scharfschütze SS-Scharführer Hoffmeister looks strange to me.
But my main argument is the line "Schützenschnur Stufe" (Badge of marksmanship level). They filled out the whole thing with name, unit, date and everything, but forget to mention, which level he gained.

It would be Stufe I, or II or III or bronze, silver or gold.

This is missing, very strange. I am not an expert for documents, but put this into the section Axis Documents of this Forum and get it checked.

No hard feelings.

Best regards Armin
"Ihr verfluchten Racker, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" Friedrich, II. in der Schlacht von Kolin am 18.Juni 1757 zu seinen zurückgehenden Grenadieren.

history1
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by history1 » 21 Dec 2019 19:40

Better place it into "For Sale & Wanted " in Militaria & Collecting" so that John G. will have a look on it.
I don´t like it. Seems that the writer meant the more "SS" in on that paper the better. No one would use the definiton "sharpshooter" in front of the rank and name. Why is the rank shortened as "Scharf" instead "Schar"?
And what is an "SS- shooting class"? I know shooting classes from 1 to 4th but a special SS-shooting class I never met. And the eagle on the shooting lanyard looks like executed by children, at least on this photo.

Karl61
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Karl61 » 23 Dec 2019 04:50

Please excuse the items in the photo with it, they were just in my collection at the time, I'd hang items around like everyone else does. Those didn't come with the document, just the document..

This isn't a eBay/flea market fake, sorry. Please send me info on whoever is a document GOD nowadays as I've been out of this for awhile and not up to date as I'll ship it off with no issues nor worries.
Now you made me go back into my storage and pull it out. It was sold though a dealer/collector site many many yrs ago. I think I've owned it for at least 10yrs.

I've also been told this:
This may have been the predecessor or successor to the SS Marksmanship awards that were the subject of an excellent article by Andrew Mollo in the Military Advisor.

If anyone has a copy can you please check.
I'm not trying to make this into something it's not, so have at it, but not taking random "it's a fake because of".... Please enlighten me and you can forward any images you'd like to whoever as I'm curious as to the signer and awarded SS soldier. I'll keep checking back for comments etc. I'd hate to take it out of this frame as I had it reframed before I put it in storage with the proper glass and papered over back. The first photo is before I had it done professionally.

My belief is that it's was from a SS Sharpshooter competition but I'm not sure as I threw the paperwork away from the site. I've never seen another and if anyone has I'd love to see another example as if this is a flea market/eBay fake it would've been talked about way back when and more would be out and about. I'm trying to remember who the dealer collector was but can't find anything right now, he ran Friday listings and sold everything from diamond badges to stick pins.
---------
Update...
(I'M ALMOST 100% sure I bought this from Detlev Niemann when he ran his Friday internet updates and price guides listings many many years ago. I remember I had to log into his site as soon as he listed as everything sold that fast,THAT I REMEMBER. He was a legit and a respected person, most items sold as soon as he listed. I'm looking for his contact now so if anyone has it please post it, or have him contact me as I'm sure that's where I picked this up from. 100% sure, so hopefully he has a record)
But please show or forward to anyone as this isn't a fake post war document written to fool fools. If so please prove. Also the signer of the document should have other documents out there if he was a commander or? Comparing a signature would be pretty easy I'd think.
Thanks, again and not trying to make this something that it's not. But the seller was well known at the time.
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Karl61
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Karl61 » 23 Dec 2019 06:44

Come to think of it, I'M ALMOST 100% sure I bought this from Detlev Niemann when he ran his Friday internet updates and price guides many many years ago, his items sold as fast as he listed them. I'm looking for his contact now so if anyone has it please post it or have him contact me as I'm sure that's where I bought it this document from. I picked up a lot items from him when he ran his site, everything he sold went fast, that's when I jumped on this.. Please if anyone has his contact I'd love it... I know for a fact that's where I picked this from.

history1
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by history1 » 24 Dec 2019 16:42

Thanks for posting the new photos. Now I´m convinced that in the line "die in der SS Schießklasse" under the left letter of the "SS" is a number hidden. And shouldn´t the writer also have used the "SS"-runes there as he did in "SS-Scharfschütze"? ? And this surplus "Der Führer 2/SS "Germania" I also dislike now, it seems squashed to me.

Did you post it as suggested in the mentioned subforum? There are collectors which maybe saw such "docuemnt" already.
Happy X-mas

Karl61
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Re: Sharpshooter award document translation

Post by Karl61 » 25 Dec 2019 03:31

Sorry you'd squash this document because of that/your views, but not surprised as that's what these sites are known for, sad to say. Some of the highest end collectors/dealers/authors have been banned off these sites because of views/opinions.

As stated, 100% real....

As a side note I've shown this this Bill Shea (ruptured duck) just the other day. He didn't see any issues with it.
I believe Bill has 6 decades of handling meaningless little items like this. As noted above^^^^^I picked this up from a well known collector/dealer/author who I'm now trying to get ahold of, not that that matters. I know what a few people can say or speculate can/will destroy an item, that's why most stay off forums as a good item can get mauled for no reason. I have no problem sending it out to any other "expert" who knows of said subject, but why should I when I already have 2. Update: I'll be sending it to Weitze for a 3rd view, along with another unique document set I own to get paperwork so all this will stop. Then I'll add that cost to the docs ;)

Quote from Bill Shea:
There is no issue regarding the originality. This was a specialty award document for a singular type event so whatever value is assigned would be speculative because there is limited basis of perspecective.

I don't have to make this something it's not, it speaks for itself. It always has :)

I'm NOW asking if anyone knows who the recipient or signer of the document might be. I've always known it's a document from 1938 of course and for a sharpshooter event out of the 2/SS Germania. Just as Detlev Niemann sold it to me as.
I do have to say the flea market response made me laugh and shake my head as here I go again, why did I post on a forum.

If it wasn't real I'd sell it on eBay or a swap meet/flea market as a reproduction or use it as a coaster for my beer ;)
I'd like more information before I decide to move it, if I do. I owned it and even traded it, but I always missed it so took it back. I don't read German so I have no idea what it says, so again if someone can break it document down word by word that would be cool, I could careless on options at this time. I collected stuff because I enjoyed the items and uniqueness of said items. I've never seen another and still haven't.

So if anyone has any info of the two people who are on the document that would be cool also. I'd like to learn a bit more. If not it's not a big deal as I haven't known anyways. I appreciate all responses good or bad (sorry if I sound short) Anyone can forward or discuss this document anywhere you'd like, it won't change what it is, an original award from the 2/SS for his shooting skills, so I think this would fall under category as a Sharpshooter award document just as the document says. I've never seen a sharpshooter award document that's how rare they are, you can't find'm. Love to see another?? Thanks for anyone jumping in and as above please post away as all I can do is learn more about it.
Happy x-mas
Last edited by Karl61 on 25 Dec 2019 23:21, edited 6 times in total.

GregSingh
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by GregSingh » 25 Dec 2019 05:48

If you are after SS members, ask in SS section of the forum.
Unfortunately for a shooter we have only a surname, no first name, no date of birth.
You might have more luck with Komp. Chef for SS Germania.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

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Dwight Pruitt
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Dwight Pruitt » 25 Dec 2019 22:02

Karl, I would recommend Emilie Caldwell Stewart over at www.germandocuments.com. I've dealt with Emilie for almost 30 years and she's good at what she does.

Karl61
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Karl61 » 25 Dec 2019 23:32

Very cool I'll send her an email and ship off the two items I'd like paperwork on. Tks for the link ;)

Side note we've talked and she might help with something else, but doesn't do evaluations so I'll mail off to said above, even though I don't need to, it'll just add to the doc cost later for someone.... tks for the referral
Last edited by Karl61 on 26 Dec 2019 02:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Hohlladung
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Hohlladung » 26 Dec 2019 02:05

Hi Karl,
Let's start all over.
You ask for a translation, here it is:

Part 1:

For outstanding performance in shooting in recognition
the sharpshooter
SS Scharf. Hoffmeister
received the in SS shooting class
for 1938 donated marksman cord level
about what this cerificate was issued.
Hamburg, the 30. Nov. 1938
Der Führer 2 / SS "Germania"
Signature
SS O.Stuf. u. Kp.Chef

Part 2:
This shooting was a competition in the German Army. A soldier had to fulfill a certain number of hits in the category pistol, rifle and M.G. ( Position on the ground, kneeling, standing position) in the first level. After that, he received a marksman cord and certificate and would go for the next level.
The issued certifcate differs from unit to unit, but the text is almost the same. You find these on the internet.

Part 3:
As mentioned before, I only process translations from Sütterlin into German or English and I do not participate in these discussions what if, could have, etc.
But I can read German and there are some question marks, that make me thoughtful and sceptical:

1) The term " Scharfschütze" SS Scharf. Hoffmeister. Is the position driver, cook, sharpshooter mentioned with the rank? I say no.
2) The offical abbreviation for " Scharführer" is IMO Scha. and not Scharf.
3) The level Schießklasse is not filled out, as well as the class rifle, pistol or M.G.
4) As Roman mentioned before, there is obviously a number (1.?) printed in front of the term "Schießklasse", which was "inked" over with SS, but now not with runes, but with normal letters.
5) There is a dot missing after 2, you write it normally 2./ in German.

For me too many mistakes, so my impression is, this certificate was "pimped up" with SS runes, ranks, terms like Führer, etc., to make it more valuable.

Not saying by you, not an expert, but this smells strange, so why don't you follow the suggestion of Roman and put it into the section Axis documents.

Best regards
"Ihr verfluchten Racker, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" Friedrich, II. in der Schlacht von Kolin am 18.Juni 1757 zu seinen zurückgehenden Grenadieren.

Karl61
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Karl61 » 26 Dec 2019 03:09

None of the above concerns me :)
I'm not asking if it's real because it is, I needed a translation and I don't know why I fell into the forum hit lit as it's originally has been answered by those who really know.
Thank you for breaking it down as asked. I'm good with your translation and I seriously want to thank you. I'm going to move on. I don't need any options as forums are horrible for that.

Thank you guys for the help. Happy holidays

history1
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by history1 » 27 Dec 2019 09:40

After being told that it´s a shooting certificate in another thread:
Source: viewtopic.php?p=2241151#p2241151
Question Range?
if this was a Range document these would be all over the place, you'd see one in every collection as everyone went to the Range. I don't believe this is a Range document sorry to say or at least a normal range doc.
One must assume that you expect that it´s a shooting lanyard handed out for "?" - killings.
Bad luck, such didn´t happen, AFAIK. And as you claim it´s real because there is not a second one of this paper shouldn´t such "SS-shooting class" been covered in the literature anyway? But the only one I found in the entire web is this very thread.
I still haven't seen another, I'm open to be enlightened tho
Nah, you are looking only after someone wo writes what you would like to read.
And while you´re at it, you don´t miss the chance to express how untrusty [" but not surprised as that's what these sites are known for"] such forums are. Why are you not doing a research and ask military historians and visit archivese, etc. instead to ask for help here about your little paper full of discrepancies ?
One thing Armin forgot to list is the missing first name. A ownership certificate without the full name?
But what do the people here in the forum know...
ROFL

Karl61
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Re: Sharpshooter/Sniper award document translation

Post by Karl61 » 01 Jan 2020 22:57

Let me ask you, what do you collect or what's your expertise. I see from browsing your old posts you're great at translating, you did a fantastic job, 100% satisfied.
I have other items if you want to translate those but I'm kinda hesitant now :/ judgment call lmao ;)

You can NOW stop as your opinion is worthless, I'll show you why below. I have what I need so we should be good, so let's move on.

I've shown this document as of today to around 4-5 true collectors/experts/authors in this field, who probably have a combined time of well over 200 yrs of handling said items, who have owned/handled everything. Everything.....

I'm at a point now of possibility moving items as I'm getting older and don't care, I'm into other stuff now.
PS. I had H. Weitze checkout the photos via-email with no issues. His response was it's for a SS shooting lanyard, (respect his judgment, he also provided photos of other lanyard docs from the krigs) another expert as noted above said it was issued in a special shooting competition. (That I tend to believe) In part because of what you said do to the way it was written out. (Plus I can't find another one like this) But Bill S. is probably the leader in collecting experience at this time w/6+decades, plus he owns one of Hitler's Brown Shirts. Not some smuck to be ignored. I'm not looking for an opinion on this forum, I don't think I asked for one. No ones said this is a flea market/eBay fake besides forum dudes. This is why you don't find people who stay on forums for very long as you'll get other people who have no clue, who talk smack on authentic items, then it's a downward spiral and one is trying to defend an item. Why?? Really why, please post everything you own so all these internet experts can say it's questionable or a fake. Then you can waist time like I'm doing to shut it down as it's unsubstantiated BS.

Everyone please note this is coming from a guy who just asked if a fake Warsaw Getto letter/envelope was real?? this is why I'm not looking for a forum opinion. When said envelope is a obviously fake. Really a bad fake and you're telling the world my items fake or questionable? Get lost. I'll make you all the Warsaw envelopes you want. Let me get my crayons out :(
Those are the people whom I despise. I'll go with all the experts who have written and collected & sell items that are worth millions over a forum wannabe anyday. Pathetic

My mistake posting on this site, won't happen again.

If you don't like it I'm sorry, if/when you see it for sale please move on. But do yourself a favor, don't be a keyboard sniper and insinuate you're some document expert and others aren't. Just by looking back at your posts any collector can tell you're in the learning stage.
This document is meaningless to those who I've asked with knowledge, so they could careless. They handle more items than we'll ever conceive. 100% war time issued period.

The dates also line up when Himmler was deciding what to do about the SS shooting lanyards/early shooting badges. I pulled out all my old military advisors from the 90's/early 2000's after being referred by another collector and found concepts like SS Lanyards/badges from the late 30's. With photos of Prototypes from Assmann. Seems like nothing was set in stone concerning SS shooting lanyards/badges durning that time.

My personal opinion is I believe Bill Shea is 100% correct on his evaluation/look via email. You actually helped me by noting somethings. It confirmed what Bill said, not being a normal lanyard/badge doc. I believe it was issued durning a special unit sharpshooter competition.

No matter what it's still a very nice 2nd SS Germania shooting award/certificate/document, whatever you want to call it besides questionable. I haven't seen any before, it's not common like a lanyard doc. (A SS lanyard doc isn't common anyways) I'd love to see any SS Shooting competition document/lanyard/badge docs. Any tucked away?
Anyone, just go to attachments and load something.

It's different and original and it'll be in someone's collection sooner than later. So will that stupid fake Warsaw envelope unfortunately.


Happy New Years, translate on ;)

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