Difference between "Du" and "Sie"

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HPL2008
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#16

Post by HPL2008 » 05 Jan 2004, 21:34

Sorry, but that's not quite right.
The hochdeutsches (= "High German") "Ich" is the one with the "coughing-sound" "ch".
When it comes to dialects, "Ick" or "Icke" is not a generally North German Thing, it's typical for Berlin and the surrounding area; the "Eesh"-sounding "Ich" is typical for the Cologne area, while in Bavarian dialect, the "ch" is not heard at all and it sound more like "Ee". However, a Bavarian or Austrian delivering a speech in "High German" would use the "cough-type" "ch", and so did Hitler and Himmler, who, of course, had recognizable local accents but did not speak publicly in "full dialect".

However, it should be noted, that even within those large regions, many different dialects are spoken - For example, Bavaria is composed of the Governmental Districts of Upper, Lower and Middle Franconia, Swabia, Upper and Lower Bavaria and the Upper Palatinate. Slightly simplified, we are talking about three "basic" dialects - Franconian, Swabian and Bavarian, all sound quite different, and believe - A fast-talking Swabian in full dialect is quite hard to understand for a Lower Bavarian like me; it's like a whole different language. (Good thing they usually talk slowly, but that's another matter...)
But, even within those "basic" dialects, the regional differences are quite strong. Regensburg in the Upper Palatinate, for example, is less than 1 hour away from where I live in Lower Bavaria, but the difference in pronounciation is unmistakable and with some words quite radical, while many slang words are totally unique to the respective region.

ChristopherPerrien
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#17

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 05 Jan 2004, 21:53

Sounds good to me, my experience was mostly with Mannheimers, and Berliners. Ish and Ick so to speak.


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#18

Post by nondescript handle » 05 Jan 2004, 21:58

I would sum it up that (highly subjective) way:

Standard - 'ich' (soft 'ch' like the 'h' in huge; SAMPA C)
Platt/Berlin/Frisian - 'ick' (ik)
Berlin sometimes - 'ikke' (ik-ke)
Bavarian/Swabian/Austrian - 'i' (ee)
Hessian/Saxon - 'isch' (ish)
Swiss - 'ch' (hard 'ch' like Scottish 'loch'; SAMPA 'x')

Regards
Mark

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'Du' and 'Sie' again

#19

Post by PanzerPeter » 06 Jan 2004, 11:33

Back to the initial question: 'Du' and 'Sie'

1) Formal and informal is not the correct difference. It is more a question of distance between people, examples shall give you a feeling:
  • Sie:
    • When it is a unknown person in public or private
    • Even when introduced to somebody, both stay with 'Sie'
    • In 'official' relationships, for example doctor-patient, teacher-student, staff-boss, meetings with people of an other company ...
    Du:
    • used in family today (earlier ist was 'Sie' for the parents)
    • When people are put together in a group of all the same (as are students, soldiers, YMCA, Staff in most companies etc.) but only in the own hierarchy, not with the bosses
    • When two people decide to say 'Du' (usually after a certain period of successful meetings or growing sympathie)
    • When two people have a sexal relationship too :lol:
When you call somebody 'Du', then you'll do that always, in formal and non formal situations.
'Sie' is the initial case.
'Du' needs a decision. There's no way back, or you'd be rude.

2) use of 'Du' and 'Sie'
  • When I'm as near to somebody to call him 'Du', then I call him by his first name: 'Hans, würdest du bitte ...' (Hans, would you please ...)
  • When I'm as far to somebody to call him 'Su', then I call him by his last name: 'Herr Meier, würden Sie bitte ...' (Mister Smith, would you please ...)
  • A third form, but rarely used is the mix of 'Sie' with the first name. Used by mature persons for younger, to give a feeling of being a nearer: 'Hans, würden Sie bitte ...' (Hans, would you please). A typical situation could be a young student and an older professor.

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#20

Post by walterkaschner » 11 Jan 2004, 06:19

In the old days-50 years or so, or longer-it was very unusual for two unrelated adults to "dutzen einander" (to say Du to one another.) When I went to Germany in 1957 to marry my German wife, her parents (we had never before met) initially addressed me as "Sie". After a week or so, when we had become more comfortable and my father-in-law had finally bowed to the inevitable loss of his daughter to this strange American, he initiated a very formal and charming ceremony, in which champagne and brandy was brought out and, after several drinks and a speech of welcoming to the family he offered the use of "Du" to me. At the time, he used "Du" to only one other couple outside the family.

Some 25 years later, I had a similar experience with a couple, the husband of which had gone to University of Kiel with my wife and had dated her on occasion. He and my wife had continued to correspond after our marriage (but on a "Sie" basis) and the couple visited us here in Houston for a week or so in the early 1980's, but we remained at the "Sie" level of address. When we returned the visit to their apartment in Kiel a couple of years later there was again a very formal and charming ceremony, accompanied by champagne and a delightful and amusing speech, recounting the history of our relationship and mutual experiences, and suggesting the use of the "Du" form of address between us.

On the other hand, although we are very close, I am still on a "Sie" basis with the next door neighbors of my wife's parents, whom I have known (and laughed, joked and gotten drunk with) for over 45 years. But their children (in their mid- 40's now) and I "dutzen einander" as we have all the years since I have known them in their childhood.

I think its hard to generalize between the difference between the two forms of address, because so much has to do with generation, regional background and social stature. But from my little experience with modern Germany, I think the old barriers are gradually breaking down, and the use of the "Du" is becoming more and more prevalent. Indeed, I would not be terribly surprised to see the more formal ussage of "Sie"disappear in the next two or three generations (which I personally think would be a shame.)

Regards, Kaschner

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#21

Post by viriato » 11 Jan 2004, 13:31

Hello HPL2008:

Sometime ago I read that the Bavarian dialect still uses (or used) a form of dual. As you are a Bavarian could you confirm it (or not). And if so what are the correct words?

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HPL2008
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#22

Post by HPL2008 » 11 Jan 2004, 16:51

Hello viriato,
I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand the question. Could you please explain what you mean by "dual"?

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#23

Post by viriato » 11 Jan 2004, 17:12

Dual is a form used for two persons only. It was used in most Indo-european languages like classical Greek. Arab uses it too.

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HPL2008
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#24

Post by HPL2008 » 11 Jan 2004, 17:36

Ah, now I understand!

Sorry, but I have never heard of a Bavarian form of address used specifically for two people; if there ever was one, it must have been a very long time ago indeed.

If two or more people are addressed in Bavarian dialect in the informal style, it is with the plural "ihr" instead of the singular "du". (= No difference to "High German")

The more formal singular "Sie" is, theoretically, also "Sie" in the plural, just as in "High German", but here we have a peculiarity of the Bavarian dialect, which is that in everyday conversation, the use of "ihr" is acceptable as well. (That is, if I am at a "Sie" basis with several people, it is o.k. for me to use "ihr" when addressing them collectively. This, however, does not apply for truly official or formal occasions or for things like delivering a speech etc.)

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Locke
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#25

Post by Locke » 11 Jan 2004, 19:45

viriato wrote:Hello HPL2008:

Sometime ago I read that the Bavarian dialect still uses (or used) a form of dual. As you are a Bavarian could you confirm it (or not). And if so what are the correct words?
Viriato, the Sorbs (Lužinski Srbi) who live in Germany, north of Bohemia speak a special language, which has a dual form. But there are not many people of this ethnic group, who still speak their language.

Regards,
Polona

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#26

Post by ChrisMAg2 » 12 Jan 2004, 12:36

Locke wrote:
viriato wrote:Hello HPL2008:

Sometime ago I read that the Bavarian dialect still uses (or used) a form of dual. As you are a Bavarian could you confirm it (or not). And if so what are the correct words?
Viriato, the Sorbs (Luz<caron>inski Srbi) who live in Germany, north of Bohemia speak a special language, which has a dual form. But there are not many people of this ethnic group, who still speak their language.

Regards,
Polona
But the sorb language is not a german dialect, it is not related to german. Instead it is related to polish or tsheck.
Regards
Christian M. Aguilar

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#27

Post by Locke » 12 Jan 2004, 17:02

Yes, I forgot to mention exatctly that they are a slavic ethnic group.
Thank you for clearing this up.

Regards,
Polona

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#28

Post by viriato » 12 Jan 2004, 22:27

Hello Locke:

Thanks for your remark. Now I saw this site and it says that Slovenian still uses the dual. Is it right?

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... cal-number

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#29

Post by viriato » 12 Jan 2004, 23:06

Hello HPL2008:

Are you acquainted to this?
The dual has disappeared as a category in German, but a few formal traces remain as plurals in German dialects (e.g. Bavarian enk "ihr")
from:

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/sml/staff/west/nhg_gramm_cats.htm

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#30

Post by K.Kocjancic » 12 Jan 2004, 23:14

viriato wrote:Hello Locke:

Thanks for your remark. Now I saw this site and it says that Slovenian still uses the dual. Is it right?

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... cal-number
Yes, we still use it. :D

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