14. SS-Freiwilligen-Division "Galizien", Question

[DougENash]

I believe you - I sincerely believe now that they fought with the Wiking (as well as Totenkopf) like you say, and during the time you mentioned. It's a minor point, really, as to how they got there. But it would have been interesting to see whether they traveled into the 9th Army area under the cover of SS-Pol.Schtz.Rgt. 34 or not. Thanks for contributing - you've highlighted a very little known aspect of the war in the East.

[DougENash]

Mike,
Here's the document that outlines the status of SS-Pol.Schtz.Rgt. 34 as of 9 September 1944. The 9th Army records show it as the only large SS unit arriving in the Warsaw area during that time period. The III./Westland did not start arriving until 21 September - apparently, Rolf Michaelis claims that this battalion consisted of Ukrainians with a German cadre, but according to Gille's O4 (who later became his O5 when Gille took over IV. SS-Pz.Korps), Guenther Lange, this was not the case. They may have had a few sprinkled in their, but when III./Westland started reforming in May 1944, it was intended to be a 100% native German battalion.

[DougENash]

More grist for the mill - according to Vopersal in his monumental work on the SS-Totenkopf-Division, the same day that the SS-Division Wiking got its Ukrainians, the SS-TK got 800 of them as well. In my opinion, they were probably integrated virtually the same way that the Wiking's were - that is, by distributing small number of them down to the company level. So - if the TK got 800 of them, and each of the division's two infantry regiments had 12 infantry companies (total of 24, not counting regimental companies), a good rule of thumb is that each infantry company in the SS-TK Division got perhaps 33 men - divided among the 4 platoons in a company (3 rifle, one heavy weapons), that means that each platoon got about 8 men. So that works out to be roughly in line with what was earlier stated by Melnyk & Keenan. (For more info, refer to Band Vb, page 401). You have to remember that these men, no matter how well trained they were, had never been in "Großkampf" (a major battle) before and if the battalion was used as such - as at was originally organized, it probably would have failed in battle - not due to the men's fault, but due to their lack of experience. Fighting east of Warsaw in August & September 1944 wasn't for novices - only the most battle-hardened and experienced units could survive it. The Red Army wasn't kidding around and was throwing some considerable combat power against the 9. Armee in those days.

[j keenan]

According to Logusz
The men had a three day train journey from Straseci to Plock a town approximately 40 miles northwest of Modlin then transported by truck the rest of the way. There morale was high and they had been trained well but according to Yuriy Krokhmmaliuk very few men went to the Totenkopf maintaining most went to Wiking, been split between the Westland, Germania, Art.Rgt. into groups of no more than five.

[DougENash]

Well, integrating so many non-German speakers into German infantry squads and artillery batteries probably didn't work out too well - in peacetime maybe, but not when the units they are joining are involved in a major battle.
Incidentally, I've found that the testimony of low-ranking enlisted men is not the most reliable source when it comes to recording large-scale troop movements. What they know, they experience by watching the truck or train moving in front of them, hearing rumors, and seeing what's going on 5 yards (or meters) around them. This is what Guy Sajer was criticized for in his book "The Forgotten Soldier," but I think he was being honest. Most of the time, he didn't know where he was or where he was going. So for a veteran of the Galizien Division to say that very few men went to the Totenkopf Division, is to strain credulity. How would he know? The German source - a very good German source, by the way - is probably a little more believable, when he states that 800 Ukrainians arrived in his division. I'm sure the Ukrainian sources believed that they were telling the truth - I'm certain that they thought they were! But in the military, you see this phenomenon all the time. Their accounts are wonderful for their first-person retelling of what they personally experienced when fighting a battle, but not so reliable when it comes to understanding the big picture. I'll go back and research the 9th Armee rail and highway movement records to see if they are mentioned as arriving earlier than 9 September. If they moved by truck the last 40 miles, then maybe they arrived in the area between 5 - 9 September. I'll check and get back to you.

[Ponomarenko]

I believe you - I sincerely believe now that they fought with the Wiking (as well as Totenkopf) like you say, and during the time you mentioned. It's a minor point, really, as to how they got there. But it would have been interesting to see whether they traveled into the 9th Army area under the cover of SS-Pol.Schtz.Rgt. 34 or not. Thanks for contributing - you've highlighted a very little known aspect of the war in the East.

Ukrainer from SS-Div. "Galizien" official were transfered in "Wiking" in summer 1944. They were worn Symbols SS-Galizien and swear as Ukraine, but at the same time were soldiers "Wiking" division. There are not any Ukrainian unit, only ar. 1000 soldiers, devided in different Wiking units.

There are no any mention about same Ukrainer in Totenkopf division in Ukraine sourses but many mentions about Wiking.

SS-Pol.Schtz.Rgt. 34 was transfered to 9 Armee area for operatin Sternschnuppe in Kampino forest.

Doug, can you gave Nara-sourses about your mention:
- Wiking's monthly status report written by SS-Staf. Karl Ullrich for 1 October
- 9th Armee KTB for 11 September 1944
?

Regards, Roman

[Ponomarenko]

More grist for the mill - according to Vopersal in his monumental work on the SS-Totenkopf-Division, the same day that the SS-Division Wiking got its Ukrainians, the SS-TK got 800 of them as well. In my opinion, they were probably integrated virtually the same way that the Wiking's were - that is, by distributing small number of them down to the company level. So - if the TK got 800 of them, and each of the division's two infantry regiments had 12 infantry companies (total of 24, not counting regimental companies), a good rule of thumb is that each infantry company in the SS-TK Division got perhaps 33 men - divided among the 4 platoons in a company (3 rifle, one heavy weapons), that means that each platoon got about 8 men. So that works out to be roughly in line with what was earlier stated by Melnyk & Keenan. (For more info, refer to Band Vb, page 401). You have to remember that these men, no matter how well trained they were, had never been in "Großkampf" (a major battle) before and if the battalion was used as such - as at was originally organized, it probably would have failed in battle - not due to the men's fault, but due to their lack of experience. Fighting east of Warsaw in August & September 1944 wasn't for novices - only the most battle-hardened and experienced units could survive it. The Red Army wasn't kidding around and was throwing some considerable combat power against the 9. Armee in those days.

Was Vopersal clear write these 800 men from Totenkopf were Ukrainers?

[Jan-Hendrik]

Per Vopersal Vb,p.401:

Dem IV.SS-Pz.Korps werden 1500 Ersatzmannschaften zugeführt. Es sind Ukrainer und Galizier, die von der 14.Waffen- Gren.Division der SS (gal.Nr.1) vom Tr.Üb.Pl. Neuhammer kommen und "die zunächst nur an einem ruhigen Frontabschnitt eingesetzt werden können, wenn sie nicht vom Großangriff sofort verschlungen werden sollen" (AOK 9). Gleiches gilt für den angekündigten Luftwaffen-Ersatz, der nicht unmittelbar ins Gefecht geworfen werden kann. Diese Männer sind nur mangelhaft infanteristisch ausgebildet. Von den Waffen-Freiwilligen erhält die SS-"T" ca. 800 Mann zugeteilt.

Jan-Hendrik

[Ponomarenko]

Per Vopersal Vb,p.401:

Dem IV.SS-Pz.Korps werden 1500 Ersatzmannschaften zugeführt. Es sind Ukrainer und Galizier, die von der 14.Waffen- Gren.Division der SS (gal.Nr.1) vom Tr.Üb.Pl. Neuhammer kommen und "die zunächst nur an einem ruhigen Frontabschnitt eingesetzt werden können, wenn sie nicht vom Großangriff sofort verschlungen werden sollen" (AOK 9). Gleiches gilt für den angekündigten Luftwaffen-Ersatz, der nicht unmittelbar ins Gefecht geworfen werden kann. Diese Männer sind nur mangelhaft infanteristisch ausgebildet. Von den Waffen-Freiwilligen erhält die SS-"T" ca. 800 Mann zugeteilt.

Jan-Hendrik

Thanks, Jan-Hendrik!

I check Totenkopf report to Panzer-Inspection - any mention about this Ukrainer, only Luftwaffe men. Are there any mentions in others Totenkopf documents, memoirs and others? For Example, in Wiking divivsion documents, also as in documents 14 FDWSS, we can find some mentions about serving Ukrainers in Wiking and no mentions about "Totenkopf". Also I find approximately 10 Ukr. battle memoirs about Wiking (they clear stated - Wiking division or Germany division (Germany rgt), but any memoirs about Totenkopf division or something that looks like it.

[Ponomarenko]

And another detail - in the beginning of November Ukrainer from Wiking were transfered to 14 FDWSS and in Wiking reports we can see traffic of a large number of soldiers from division. But in case with Totenkopf - traffic only 100-200 soldiers by month. So I think this is confusion in documents about Ukrainer replasment for Totenkopf - I believe it were Luftwaffe soldiers, not Ukrainer.

[DougENash]

Perhaps you can assist with the original question - I've got the transportation records from the 9th Armee's 1a staff movements section - these records depict the daily transfer of troops in and out of the 9th Armee's Kampfraum - whether by rail, by road, air, or by foot. These records even depict the movement of a small contingent of Red Cross women into the zone of operations. Whether Heer, Luftwaffe or Waffen-SS, the records depict all of the movements, of units both large and small. It even shows the arrival and departure of Police units. The record runs continuously from mid-July to December 1944, and nowhere does it show the arrival or departure of these Ukrainians. I believe that they were there - the Totenkopf and Wiking accounts reflect this - but how did they get there? A movement of such a large body of men (1,000 to 1,500) would have been noticed and properly recorded, because the coordination that needed to be accomplished to carry this out would have been the responsibility of the 9th Armee, which controlled IV. SS-Pz.Korps. Anyone?

[Ponomarenko]

Not 1000, only 650 Ukrainer arrived to Modlin by train (40 men for the carriage - approximately
17 carriage) 10 september 1944. Another 200-300 Ukrainer were included to III/Westland and arrived to front separated - 21.9.44 with the their bataillon.

Figure 1500 replasment for T&W Divisions are mistake, I believe, becouse Ukrainer were only 900 men, but part of them stayed in Kammwald with their unit - III/W.

[DougENash]

Sounds plausible - here's the pages from the 9th Armee 1a's movement records for 10 September 1944. The only SS units arriving in the area that could have had Ukrainians was SS-Polizei-Regiment 34, which had two battalions of Ukrainians that traveled aboard trains #s 180755/757 and 768 (the 5th and 6th trains that arrived in 9. Armee's Kampfraum that day), that arrived in Modlin at 14.30. It's mystifying why the records don't show the arrival of the Galizien replacements.

[Ponomarenko]

Maybe 9/9 or 11/9? Staedke wrote about 1500 Replacements for T&W in note by 11.9.

[DougENash]

Here's the records in question for 9 September: