Begleitkommando or RSD?

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Riker1
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Begleitkommando or RSD?

Post by Riker1 » 22 Dec 2006 01:50

Hello ppl,

I watched closely the ss guards from „Untergang“ movie, and what bothers me is the guy on the right of this picture (near the door), i cannot identify to which unit does he belong to.

http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/3301/28ly0.jpg
Is it Begleitkommando or RSD unit?
Does someone maybe know which ss officer should this character in the movie represent?

Thx alot

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coburg22
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Post by coburg22 » 22 Dec 2006 15:59

Riker 1,

Hello, I have a copy of the same movie and suspect he was playing a member of
the SS-BK. Usually the SS-BK played the role of Adjutants, Valets and Ord. Officers
where as the RSD were assigned Security duties. In the photos I have seen, it also
shows that the SS-BK wore the SS runes on the right collar tab while the RSD wore
none (blank).

Coburg22

Riker1
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Post by Riker1 » 23 Dec 2006 13:51

so you think it was BK?

Thx very much, i just couldn't be sure!

Mark Costa
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Post by Mark Costa » 24 Dec 2006 04:38

This is definately a SS BK man -- the other way to tell other than the collar tabs is that ALL Begleitkommando men came from the SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler Division and wore the "Adolf Hitler" sleeveband. These two ways are the easiest ways to distinguish RSD boys from the SS BK men.

Mark Costa

Riker1
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Post by Riker1 » 24 Dec 2006 12:39

speaking of BK and RSD, in the same movie (Untergang) when ss-guys came to arrest Fegelein, some of them wore the same uniforms and brown shirts as this upper guy, and some wore similar uniforms with blank collar tabs (like SD), and leading officer wore regular waffen-ss uniform (without shirt and tie). I'll try to post their pics if i find some.

Do you know if those guys who were ordered to pick up Fegelein are also BK, or maybe RSD? Or combination of both? Under who's command were they operating?

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coburg22
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Post by coburg22 » 24 Dec 2006 18:52

Hello Riker 1,

When SS-Gruppenfuhrer Fegelein failed to return to the Bunker, it was the RSD detail
under Deputy Kdr. SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Peter Hogl that went after him and brou-
ght him back out of hiding and it is possible that they executed him as well once he
was found guilty of desertion. The overall Commander of the RSD was SS-Gruppenfuh-
rer Hans Rattenhuber. As far as the movie is concerned, there is to be expected a mix-
ture of SS Uniforms with and without proper insignia depending on availability and the
number of men that were required for each part of the movie.

Coburg22

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mty
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Post by mty » 24 Dec 2006 19:03

Another uniform question arises: how did RSD men differ from regular SD/SIPO members? I think both had blank right collar tabs but did both wear SD raute (either piped or non-piped, in case of SD)? From what I have seen, RSD guys do not seem to wear any kind of cufftitles nor sleeve diamonds.

As they were mainly from Kripo, most Kripo men seem not to have worn the SD raute as well.

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coburg22
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Post by coburg22 » 24 Dec 2006 19:20

Mty,

I think it would be interesting to see close ups of the RSD uniform, especially the
shoulder board piping and underaly to see if it was similar to any of the RSHA uni-
forms that were worn. And you are right, there was no sleeve diamonds or cuffbands
worn on the uniform. It would be nice to see if there are any photos of them wearing
Wehrmacht uniforms since they were allowed to wear them if needed for security pur-
poses during the war.

Coburg22

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mty
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Post by mty » 24 Dec 2006 21:36

I think that shoulder boards of RSD were of Waffen-SS type instead of police type. Perhaps pre-war they wore Allgemeine-SS style boards, if they ever were issued A-SS grey tunics. I have browsed through many books related to subject but still haven't been able to find an accurate, exact description of standard RSD service uniform.

If an officer of RSD was originally from Kripo (like most of them were), did he retain his position and rank in Kripo while on duty with RSD or was he completely transferred outside RSHA bureaucracy?

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coburg22
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Post by coburg22 » 24 Dec 2006 22:19

Hello,

It is possible members of the RSD were severed from the RSHA since it was con-
sidered a seperate Reich Agency with its own budget and under Hitler's direct con-
trol but still was part of the SS for organizational purposes only.

Coburg22

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mty
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Post by mty » 24 Dec 2006 22:35

To clarify things a bit (mainly to myself but could be helpful to others as well), I made two fast illustrations. Since I do not have my reference books here right now - I should be enjoying Christmas time with my family :oops: - they are based to my memory. Both tunics represent the pale grey Allgemeine-SS style open collar tunic issued from 1938 onwards.

Image

Fig 1: RSD uniform, ca. 1938-1939:
- white serive shirt
- pale grey A-SS service tunic
- blank right collar tab, indicating SS special formations (originally intended to indicate all Allgemeine-SS units outside territorial standarten)
- no sleeve diamond
- no cufftitle

Fig 2: SD service uniform of SS-Untersturmführer (Sicherheitsdienst member, belongin to RSHA department III)
- brown "party style" shirt (although I think white shirts were also used, actually brown shirts seem to have been almost out of use by 1939)
- party badge on tie
- blank right collar tab
- non-piped SD sleeve diamond
- blank cufftitle

Addition to illustration: the tunic collar should have aluminium piping, I forgot to add it :)

By 1938-1939 there seem to have been SD members wearing either the blank cufftitle or cufftitle of SD-Hauptamt. I think those with SD-Hauptamt cufftitle were affiliated to SD-Hauptamt and it was a carryover to RSHA. There are also photos from those years of SD men with no cufftitle at all.

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coburg22
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Post by coburg22 » 24 Dec 2006 23:22

mty,

Nice illustrations. Do you have a copy of "Hitler's Personal Security" by Peter Hoff-
mann? Great book on the RSD and SS-BK.

Coburg22

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mty
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Post by mty » 25 Dec 2006 13:11

Yes, I have. Actually I am reading it through right now :). Unfortunately there are not many photos actually showing RSD men. Another question arises from the book: after the Elser attack, a specialized security formation was set up to guard the new Reich Chancellory. It was names Sicherheits-Kontrolldienst, put under RSD control (Rattenhuber was the titular commander) but it had a uniform of its own.

What kind of uniform was that and how did it differ from those of RSD? My guess is that they had some kind of special distinctive insignia such as gorgets or cuffbands but otherwise wore typical RSD style SS uniforms. Any photos or better descriptions available?

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coburg22
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Post by coburg22 » 25 Dec 2006 18:34

mty,

The uniforms of the Sicherheits Kontrolldienst may have taken more after the polizei
since the were all retired police officers and belonged neither to the SS or the RSD.
It is not suprising that a baby sitting service would have to be created especially for
the younger members of the LSSAH who were stuck with guard duty. I almost think
Hitler would have been better off having the RSD ride with him instead of behind him
since they were older and had more experience.

Coburg22

Riker1
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Post by Riker1 » 25 Dec 2006 22:41

what would happen in the case of emergency, if Hitler's life would be at risk? Would then BK command have to take orders from RSD command, or would they cooperate somehow? What was the emergency protocol and relationship between BK and RSD command?

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