SS-Motorstandarten

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BB-WA
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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by BB-WA » 19 Feb 2010 09:38

Hi Mike, Radevich and Phil

Been away for a while. Thanks for all additions and corrections.

Mike wrote.
His name is indeed Werner von Klosowski or Werner von Klossowski. See for more info, and the other spelling, the following link:
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=109455&p=964504&hilit=Klossowski#p964504


From the link I see Phil emphasises the spelling and Peter in the post below him also uses the same spelling.
Werner von Klossowski (Note spelling) Born 3.3.1888 Usf 20.4.34 Stammabteilung 39 1938 IK 1 Wound badge in Gold (From DAL 1938)
Phil Nix

And by Peter.

by Peter
Werner von Klossowski
Born 3 Mar 1888

SS # 8 976
NSDAP # 118 313 ......


I dont have the 1938 DAL so I don't know which spelling is correct but Klosowski is used in the 1934 DAL.

On another matter or two.
1) - For the restructure date I see in Karl Schuster's bio (Thanks yet again Phil)
01.11.1936. - 01.01.1937. - Referent I / Motor, beim Stab SS-Oberabschnitte Mitte -
01.04.1936. - 01.11.1936. - Führer, 11. SS-Motorstandarte, beim SS-Oberabschnitte West -

Looks like 11. SS-Motorstandarte was disbanded on 01.11.1936, in the restructure, it also has the same date and new designation (Referent I / Motor) as Erich Tschimpke in his bio. So 01.11.1936, is looking good for the restructure date.

2) - I have come across another Motorstaffel z.b.V. based in Berlin. There was also one based in München.
Motorstaffel z.b.V. - beim Stab SS-Gruppe Ost -
Motorstaffelführer -
12.06.1933. - 00.00.0000. - SS-Haupttruppführer. Jurk - (Htruppf 00.00.00) -

I have asked this before but I'll try again. Does anyone know what their z.b.V. function was? My guess is, because of the two locations, both were extremely important cities at this time for the NSDAP and the SS and it was possibly a VIP fleet for high ranking NSDAP and SS officials visiting on business. Could be totally wrong of course, anyone got a better idea?


Regards
Brian

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by Mikedc » 19 Feb 2010 12:47

Hello Radevich,
Thanks for the extra info on Karl Radke, that was most welcome.
And thanks for posting the SS-number from Ellermeier, I forgot that.

Hi Phil,
Thanks for the extra promotiondates from Eller I didn't had yet. And also his service with the Staf RF SS was unknown to me.


Greetings, Mike

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Re: Willi Christiansen

Post by Mikedc » 28 Nov 2010 00:43

Brian wrote:
** 1 / SS-Motorstandarte 15 -
SS-Sturmführer. Willi Christiansen SS# 14 611 - (SS-Stuf. - 12.04.1934.)
I've his promotiondate to Sturmführer as 25-3-34 and not 12-4-34

Greetings, Mike

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Re: Willi Christiansen

Post by Phil Nix » 28 Nov 2010 12:12

Mikedc wrote:Brian wrote:
** 1 / SS-Motorstandarte 15 -
SS-Sturmführer. Willi Christiansen SS# 14 611 - (SS-Stuf. - 12.04.1934.)
I've his promotiondate to Sturmführer as 25-3-34 and not 12-4-34

Greetings, Mike
Christiansen Party Nr 726408 SS Nr 14611 Born 10.4.1908 Usf 20.4.34 Osf 20.4.35 Hsf 9.11.38 Sbf 9.11.43 Beim I Sturmbann der SS Standarte der Führer 1938
Phil Nix

Mikedc
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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by Mikedc » 28 Nov 2010 12:30

Hello Phil,
Thank you, but this promotiondate(25-3-34), actually came from you:
Willi Christiansen born 10.4.08 Party nr 726408 SS nr 14611 Usf 25.3.34, Osf 20.4.35 Hsf 9.11.38 Sbf 9..11.43
I did find this info at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... en#p776659

Greetings, Mike

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by Mikedc » 28 Nov 2010 20:09

Brian wrote:
SS-Obersturmführer. Dr. Franz Nieder SS# 2 549 - (SS-Ostuf. - 05.05.1934.)
Hey Brian, it's Dr. Franz Niedner, not Nieder. On 30-1-45 promoted to SS-Standartenführer.

Brian wrote:
SS-Sturmführer. Karl Zimmermann SS# 2 563 - (SS-Stuf. - 20.04.1933.)
The SS-DAL, 1934/SS-Sturmführer says SS-Stuf 20.4.34

Greetings, Mike

BB-WA
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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by BB-WA » 29 Nov 2010 02:24

Hi Mike and Phil

Keep up the good work. I haven't looked at that file for a while, looks like a few more corrections for me to get it up to date.

Regards
Brian

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by Mikedc » 30 Nov 2010 13:42

Brian wrote:
** 3 / SS-Motorstandarte 10 -
SS-Sturmhauptführer. Heinrich Petri SS# 5 219 - (SS-Stuf. - 09.09.1932.)(SS-Sthauptf. - 31.07.1933.)
The SS-DAL, 1934/Sturmhauptführer says: F. III/10 and not F. Mo. III/10. Mo. -Sta.
So when I read this correctly he was CO from III. Sturmbann with 10. SS-Standarte and therefor not CO from SS-Motorstaffel III with 10. SS-Motorstandarte.

Brian wrote:
** 2 / SS-Motorstandarte 21 -
SS-Obersturmführer. Egon Dalsky SS# 18 286 - (SS-Ostuf. - 26.05.1934.)
I think his correct name was Dalski, most of the other sources on the internet that are mentioning him are writing it like this. Can somebody confirm this???

Brian wrote:
SS-Sturmhauptführer. Constantin Heldmann SS# 59 138 - (SS-Sthauptf. - 17.06.1934.) (SS-Ostuf. - 12.03.1934.) (SS-Stuf. - 24.12.1933.)
The SS-DAL, 1934/Sturmhauptführer has him as Führer from 22. SS-Standarte, not from 22. SS-Motorstandarte.

Greetings, Mike

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by BB-WA » 01 Dec 2010 10:53

Hi Mike
Brian wrote:
** 2 / SS-Motorstandarte 21 -
SS-Obersturmführer. Egon Dalsky SS# 18 286 - (SS-Ostuf. - 26.05.1934.)
1935 DAL - Ltd# 778 - Egon Dalsky SS# 18 286 - NSDAP# 605 214 - F. Mo. III / 9 - (Stuf 24.12.32, Ostuf 26.05.34, Hstuf 19.01.35) -
1936 DAL - Ltd# 978 - Egon Dalsky SS# 18 286 - NSDAP# 605 214 - Stab. Oa. Elbe - (Stuf 24.12.32, Ostuf 26.05.34, Hstuf 19.01.35, Stubaf 09.11.36) -

From my interpretation from the the (Schwabacher?) script used in the early DAL's I read his name as Dalsky. The "y" looks similar to an "n" but has a longer curved drop an the right side. Could be wrong on that but thats how I read it.

Regards.
Brian

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by Phil Nix » 01 Dec 2010 12:11

Here is a brief bio on Dalski
Phil Nix
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Mikedc
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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by Mikedc » 01 Dec 2010 13:51

Hello Phil,
As usual this is excellent, thank you for posting it. I already had quite a lot about Dalsky/Dalski but looking at this piece I also see that I was missing pieces.

Question.
The SS-DAL, 1934/SS-Obersturmführer says: Egon Dalsky. F. Mo. II/21, and when I read the writings from Brian correctly he thought this meant that he was CO from II. Sturmbann(or was it SS-Motorstaffel II ??)with 21. SS-Motorstandarte. But according to your piece of info this meant CO from II. Motorsturmbann with 21. SS-Standarte.

So each Standarte had, besides the usual Sturmbanne, also Motorsturmbanne???
And what about the Motorstandarten, did they had Sturmbanne or Motorstaffels or Motorsturmbanne???
And how does a Motorsturm fit in???

Sorry for all these questions but this thread from Shane got me intrigued and after all the writings from Brian I got even more intrigued. But I'm messing up somewhere and hopefully somebody can give me some answers to go on.....


Greetings, Mike

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by BB-WA » 02 Dec 2010 10:28

Hi Mike

Sorry the way I wrote the information is confusing but it made sense to me at the time. I have since re-written the whole thing with all the corrections that have been pointed out to me so far. I'm sure there could still be others.

Now to try and answer some of your questions. I found that the SS-Motor Einheit(en) / SS-Motorstandarte(n) underwent several re-structures. Even if not correct in my interpretation, I find several re-structures (5) before they became the SS-Kraftfahrsturm Ca 1938 till the end. The file in I posted in this topic is from data in the 1934 DAL.

The names of some ranks were changed or deleted and some SS-Motorstandarte were re-assigned to another area as geographic boundaries changed from SS-Oberführerbereiche to SS-Gruppe to SS-Oberabschnitt. It is a very confusing subject, especially in placing someone in the right command in the right re-structure period. So I understand where you are coming from.

So for a start here are some ranks I found from the earlier period and who they were attached to - (ideally!) means the rank preferred from the SS-Motor Einheiten / SS-Motorstandarten formation in 1931, but this was not always the case or achievable. Also my understanding of the document in trying to read the script could be wrong.

Ranking System.: -
(SOURCE ss motor1.jpg, ss motor2.jpg, etc. - posted by Phil on page 1 of this topic)
These two positions were Staff positions on Himmlers Staff (i.e. Referentabteilungen der RFSS).: -
00.(05).1931. - 00.00.0000. - I don't know how these evolved in later re-structures. - I need help on this one!
Reichsstaffelführer der SS - Overall SS Commander - (ideally!) with the rank of Oberführer or Standartenführer -
Inspekteur für Motorstürm u. Staffeln der SA und SS - (ideally!) with the rank of Standartenführer or Sturmbannführer -
* Not to sure how long the above positions lasted under that name but I've come accross this position and don't know if it superceedes them in 1934?
Chefstaffelführer im Stab RFSS.: - What is this position?? I need help on this one!
15.03.1934. - 00.00.0000. - SS-Sturmführer. Paul Geisler SS# 127 020 - (m.d.W.d.G.b.) - (Otruppf , Stuf 15.03.34, Ostuf 15.06.34) - (PB#13 - 04.05.1934) - (later as Führer z.b.V. RFSS, 1934 DAL ) -

These ranks were field commands.: -
(SOURCE ss motor1.jpg, ss motor2.jpg, etc. - posted by Phil on page 1 of this topic)
* 00.(05).1931. - Ca. 00.11.1933. -
Motorgruppenstaffelführer. - Commander of all SS-Motorised Units in an SS-Gruppe. Attached to the Stab of a SS-Gruppe. - (ideally!) with the rank of Oberführer or Standartenführer - (this rank is pre SS-Oberabschnitt and was discontinued when the SS-Oberabschnitte were formed Ca. 00.11.1933)
Motoroberstaffelführer. - Commander of SS-Motorised Units (SS-Motorstandarten) in an SS-Abschnitt. Attached to the Stab of a SS-Abschnitt - (ideally!) with the rank of Standartenführer or Sturmbannführer
Motorstaffelführer. - Commander of an individual SS-Motorised Unit (SS-Motorstandarte). Attached to the Stab of a SS-Fußstandarte - (ideally!) with the rank of Standartenführer, Sturmbannführer or Sturmführer
Motorsturmführer. - Commander of a Sturm(bann) a sub unit of an individual SS-Motorstandarte - (ideally!) with the rank of Sturmbannführer, Sturmführer or Truppführer
Motortruppführer. - (ideally!) with the rank of Sturmführer, Truppführer or Scharführer
Motorscharführer. - (ideally!) with the rank of Truppführer or Scharführer

* Ca. 00.11.1933 - into (mid / late) 1934 -
(SOURCE Personalbefehlblatt - 1932-1934)
Motorgruppenstaffelführer. - This rank was discontinued -
Motoroberabschnittsstaffelführer. (Oberabschnittsstaffelführer) - Commander of all SS-Motorstandarten in an SS-Oberabschnitt. Attached to the Stab of a SS-Oberabschnitt -
Motoroberstaffelführer (Abschnittsstaffelführer) - Commander of all SS-Motorstandarten in an SS-Abschnitt. Attached to the Stab of a SS-Abschnitt -
Motorstaffelführer. (Staffelführer) - Commander of a SS-Motorstandarte. Still attached to the Stab of various SS-Fußstandarten in an SS-Abschnitt -
Motorsturmführer. - Commander of a SS-Motorsturm(bann). - Possibly attached to a Sturmbann in a SS-Fußstandarte? -

* (mid / late) 1934 - Ca. November 1936 -
(SOURCE Personalbefehlblatt - 1932-1934 and 1934 DAL)
From here on I don't know how long these titles were used for. I have no period documents apart from the DAL's and in these are only referred to as Führer.
Motoroberstaffelführer. - Commander of all SS-Motorstandarten in an SS-Oberabschnitt. Attached to the Stab of a SS-Oberabschnitt -
Motorstaffelführer. - Commander of a SS-Motorstandarte in an SS-Abschnitt. Now attached to the Stab of a SS-Abschnitt -
Motorsturmführer. - Commander of a SS-Motorsturmbann - Attached to ?? -

* Ca. November 1936. - 1938. - Not sure how commander's were referred to now. Possibly just as Führer.
Referent I / Motor - Commander of all SS-Motorstandarten in an SS-Oberabschnitt. Attached to the Stab of a SS-Oberabschnitt -

I don't have all the answers so any additions or corrections welcome.

BTW - I see in Phil's Bio on Dalsky / Dalski he makes a note of saying that he changed the spelling of his name in the mid 1930's. So I guess either is correct.

Regards.
Brian

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by Mikedc » 02 Dec 2010 20:00

Hey Brian,
Thank you for this wonderfull explanation, I can see this is indeed not the easiest material.

Brian wrote:
23. SS-Motorstandarte
beim
SS-Sturmführer Ewald Henning( SS# 72 619 - (SS-Stuf. - 10.05.1934.)
The SS-DAL, 1934/SS-Sturmführer has his name as Ewald Hennig and not Henning.

Brian wrote:
** 2 / SS-Motorstandarte 23 -
SS-Obersturmführer. Friedrich Schuster SS# 7 209 - (SS-Ostuf. - 09.11.1933.)
Promoted to SS-Sturmführer on 09.11.1932.


Greetings, Mike

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by Phil Nix » 03 Dec 2010 13:05

Ewald Hennig was promoted SS Hsf and SS Hsf der Reserve 30.1.1943 He was attached to Kraftfahreinheit 3 1938 He was awarded IK 2 and the Wound Badge in Silver WW 1
Phil Nix

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Re: Motorstandarten

Post by BB-WA » 07 Dec 2010 09:00

Hi Phil
He was promoted SS Hsf and SS Hsf der Reserve 30.1.1943 He was attached to Kraftfahreinheit 3 1938 He was awarded IK 2 and the Wound Badge in Silver WW 1
Phil Nix
Who does this refer to?

Regards
Brian

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