19.12.1944, the events leading to the Parfondruy massacre:
Keeping hold of Stavelot, the first Battalion of the 117th Regiment, well supported by artillery and tank destroyers, barred all progress across the Amblève there. With I.SS-Panzerkorps' decision to back Kampfgruppe Peiper, control of the town was of the utmost importance to the Germans, and on the afternoon of December 19 Stavelot was subjected to a further attack, both from the units doubling back from La Gleize and those seeking to get through from the far side of the river.
Back in La Gleize at about 12.00h Knittel receives orders to attack Stavelot. Goltz has the mission to search for the American batteries on the hills north of Stavelot, Coblenz has to attack the town in order to take the bridge.
Their order of battle: 2.Kompanie
Pionierzug from Stabskompanie
Erkundungszug from Stabskompanie
Fahrradzug from Stabskompanie
Knittel sets up his field CP in the Antoine Farm. Knittel treats the civilians at la Ferme Antoine correctly, as is confirmed by Mdme. Antoine after the war.
Goltz leads the Erkundungszug to Ster to secure the northern flank. Dröge takes of with his Pionierzug along Sentier de la Croix aux Clous, starting between the two viaducts. They advance as quiet as possible. Dröge's men assemble the civilians they meet as they fear that the civilians will otherwise inform the Americans about the advancing Germans. The civilians are taken along in the back of the column. They pass Ferme des Mazures and moves towards the village of Renardmont. At Ferme Groffin de Renardmont American soldiers are seen by Dröges men. Shortly after that the American artillery opens fire on the positions of the Pionierzug and they move back to Ferme Pirnay. Here SS-Unterscharführer Wolf takes along some men to find the American guns. Dröge is frustrated as his mission failed. The Americans are aware of his presence, but he fears that the civilians will inform the Americans about the number of advancing Germans and their new location. He plans to lock them into the Pirnay farm, but the cellar has a concrete ceiling. Thus they move on towards Parfondruy. There Dröge gets all the civilians into Ferme Legrand, he orders to set fire to the farm building. MG loaders Franz Scziera
and Alfred Schairer witness this. Alfred Führer, an MG-gunner, tries to fire into the building but the MG malfunctions. Hartmuth Strauss fires his MG. Some SS finish the civilians with pistols. The family Legrand is killed, except Mr Legrand who was away at that time. Dröge orders Edgar Leithold to set fire to the farm building. 8 civilans are able to flee out of the burning building. Amis are sighted at Bois de la Borzeu, artillery sets in. Later that day Dröge leads his Kompanie to the western edge of Stavelot to support Coblenz.
Knittel learned about the massacre later that day. It could be that he did not care about it, but he did not gave orders for the killing. Same with Goltz, who was still in Ster at the time of the killing. The order to take the civilans with them might be given by Goltz, but Dröge made the decission to kill them.
This info was assembled by studying the proces files, reading memoires from American, German and Belgian witnesses, talking with German veterans and by extensive research on location.
Timo
HIAG and "Equal Rights" for Waffen-SS by 1961?
Re: re
What do you think not taking prisonners means? Giving them shelter and candies? You just proved that the entire LAH brigade is guilty since the entire brigade received that order from Dietrich and not a unit in particular. And in 1941, there was no draftees or youngsters in the LAH. All men, all volunteers for the LAH.tonyh wrote:>>Dietrich oredered to kill 4000 soviet POW's as retaliation for 6 LAH members killed by RKKA or NKVD<<
As far as I know, Deitrich ordered that no prisoners be taken for four days at Taganrog in Oct. 1941. A different concept altogether than shooting POW's.
By the way, if two massacres occured in Belgium in december 1944 committed by two different units, that means that the entire line of command is guilty of war crimes. the COs of the comPAny, batalion, regiment, division ARE responsable for that because they allowed that kind of behavior. If their men are doing that without permission from above that means they lack discipline.
You just proved your ignorance. You simply have no idea about the circumstances in the Ardennes, do you? They didn't allow or did not allow these things, they were pressed to advance, surrounded and contact between divisional HQ (Mohnke) and the different Kampfgruppen was almost impossible. Kampfgruppe commanders had no idea about the wereabouts of half their men and had no idea what to expect from an enemy in an area totally unsuited for combat. Small groups of LAH soldiers and Americans were everywere and many of them had no contact with their commanding officers. They had other things on their mind then punishing men for killing civilians or POW's. Knittel and his men were glad get out alive.By the way, if two massacres occured in Belgium in december 1944 committed by two different units, that means that the entire line of command is guilty of war crimes. the COs of the comPAny, batalion, regiment, division ARE responsable for that because they allowed that kind of behavior.
They lacked experience, thats why they were green. This is different from lack of dicipline. If you've been with Luftwaffe ground crews or in school and all over sudden, without proper combat training, you're in the middle of the confusing battle situation in the La Gleize/Stavelot/Malmedy area, you just don't know what to do. Your accusations are based on text book theories. But most the men in LAH service back in the fall of 1944 never got the chance to study these text books or to even to get basic training. Its not about text book rules and official command structures, its psychology. It does not approve murder but it does explain why things happened.If their men are doing that without permission from above that means they lack discipline.
Timo
If only it was that simple.What do you think not taking prisonners means? Giving them shelter and candies? You just proved that the entire LAH brigade is guilty since the entire brigade received that order from Dietrich and not a unit in particular. And in 1941, there was no draftees or youngsters in the LAH. All men, all volunteers for the LAH.
Guilty for receiving an order? So, basically, even if they did not obey this order they would be guilty just for receiving it?
Thus if my boss at work orders me tomorrow to kill somebody, I am guilty because he gave me the order? Even if I don't obey him. Strange.
By the way: following the Malmedy massacre the Allied High Commander gave orders not to take SS or Fallschirmjager prisoners for one week. Contrary to the alleged order given by 6.Panzer Armee high command prior to the offensive, this order was very real. How about that?
Timo
Missing contact with HQs does not mean kill civillian or POWs even if you are in a hurry to advance during an offensive.Timo wrote:You just proved your ignorance. You simply have no idea about the circumstances in the Ardennes, do you? They didn't allow or did not allow these things, they were pressed to advance, surrounded and contact between divisional HQ (Mohnke) and the different Kampfgruppen was almost impossible. Kampfgruppe commanders had no idea about the wereabouts of half their men and had no idea what to expect from an enemy in an area totally unsuited for combat. Small groups of LAH soldiers and Americans were everywere and many of them had no contact with their commanding officers. They had other things on their mind then punishing men for killing civilians or POW's. Knittel and his men were glad get out alive.By the way, if two massacres occured in Belgium in december 1944 committed by two different units, that means that the entire line of command is guilty of war crimes. the COs of the comPAny, batalion, regiment, division ARE responsable for that because they allowed that kind of behavior.
They lacked experience, thats why they were green. This is different from lack of dicipline. If you've been with Luftwaffe ground crews or in school and all over sudden, without proper combat training, you're in the middle of the confusing battle situation in the La Gleize/Stavelot/Malmedy area, you just don't know what to do. Your accusations are based on text book theories. But most the men in LAH service back in the fall of 1944 never got the chance to study these text books or to even to get basic training. Its not about text book rules and official command structures, its psychology. It does not approve murder but it does explain why things happened.If their men are doing that without permission from above that means they lack discipline.
Timo
Lacking experience does not mean killing civilians. "Not knowing what to do" is not an excuse for killing a peacefull family of civilians.
So stop telling people they are ignorant because what happened in the Ardennes is war crime ans crime against humanity. But maybe you didn,t know that Since Waffen-SS veterans do not talk about that....
Cheerio...
You just don't get it, do you? Missing contact with HQ means that commanding officers can't be held responsible for the misdeeds of some of their soldiers. Those who committed attrocities are guilty, but not the others. Even if they were their commanders.Missing contact with HQs does not mean kill civillian or POWs even if you are in a hurry to advance during an offensive.
Very true. However it does explain why they opened fire at Baugnez instead of controlling their nerves and it does explain why they obeyed Dröges orders.Lacking experience does not mean killing civilians. "Not knowing what to do" is not an excuse for killing a peacefull family of civilians.
Total nonsense. I've stated several times in the discussion that they do talk about it, that they are aware of the crimes and that they do feel bad about those who committed the crimes. And apart from that, I stated time and time again that we are talking about warcrimes here. So whats your point as you are ignorant about the circumstances which led to these warcrimes.So stop telling people they are ignorant because what happened in the Ardennes is war crime ans crime against humanity. But maybe you didn,t know that Since Waffen-SS veterans do not talk about that....
Timo
Are you trying to win the "most ridiculous reply" competition?Starinov wrote:Sure, Timo, sure.
only a bunch of guys committed some crimes but they are not so responsible than it appears. and all the otthers are gallant knights.
Only a few committed attrocities but acted due to difficult circumstances.
Those guilty:
- Dröge. For deciding to kill these civilians
- The Grenadiers at Baugnez. Not for the initial shooting, but for deciding to kill all survivors in order to get rid of eye witnesses.
The others were not involved or (Dröges men) were guilty but followed orders from their commanding officer. This last group still committed a crime, but would become from the mentioned dicipline if they had not obeyed that order? Like it or not, soldiers have to follow orders, they can't decide not to in such a situation. Not in the German army, not in any army.
BTW: no replies to the Allied order to make no prisoners?
Timo
1. I am not trying to win this competition.
2. We are talking about " to be guilty or not to be guilty" of the Waffen-SS. Not the Allied soldiers.. It doesn't mean that it didn't happen but for the moment it is off topic. So let's stick to the subject.
I didn't say that the german or any other army should not obey their superiors. But if they do, they are equally guilty as the officer that issued that order. And it can go as far as the regiment or division commander. In any army, the commanding officer IS responsible for the acts of his soldiers. If he wasn't would not be the CO.
2. We are talking about " to be guilty or not to be guilty" of the Waffen-SS. Not the Allied soldiers.. It doesn't mean that it didn't happen but for the moment it is off topic. So let's stick to the subject.
I didn't say that the german or any other army should not obey their superiors. But if they do, they are equally guilty as the officer that issued that order. And it can go as far as the regiment or division commander. In any army, the commanding officer IS responsible for the acts of his soldiers. If he wasn't would not be the CO.
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Chief Whip
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“only a bunch of guys committed some crimes but they are not so responsible than it appears. and all the otthers [others] are gallant knights.”
Is what “Starinov” tries to sell us.
Do we believe such unfounded nonsense? No, we do not I am glad to say.
Obviously, “Starinov” comes from that spoiled nineties-generation, the kind that watched some American video documentaries, heard about the SS and war crimes vaguely, and thinks he knows all about it all, that he knows the exact feelings of all soldiers involved during conditions of war, that they can judge everything from their cosy chair, and that every German was evil. Of course, Germans started the war, didn’t they? So, they must be evil and every war crime, clearly proven or not is a proof of collective German sub humanity and should be treated as such, right?
No, not right.
“Starinov” carries the Polish eagle as his ‘avatar’. Let us apply his arguments to the Polish behaviour during the second world war.
i.) I refer “Starinov” to my thread ‘Polish atrocities against Germans’, located at http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1960.
From this thread, I quote several parts, I refer to the thread itself for a listing of sources consulted,;
“ […] Several months before Germany invaded Poland, the news and radio services in Poland spread the message that; “daß im Kriegsfalle kein einheimischer Feind lebend entrinnen wird”.”
Translated: “In the case of war, no ethnical enemy (the Volksdeutsche) will escape alive.”
This would indicate a clear pre-planned strategy to commit atrocities against the Volksdeutsche, planned and later executed by Polish soldiers, police and Para-military units.
Following is an example on how these pre-planned atrocities, as explained above, were executed;
“[…]The arrested civilians were brought to Eastern-Poland on foot-marches. Those, who could not follow, were struck dead. Of the 700 arrested Germans from Obornik, 231 were killed during the march”
These are serious crimes, and not to be taken lightly.
ii.) I quote from Gordon Williamson’s ‘Loyalty is my Honour’, p. 137, Rudi Splinter’s account;
“ [...] Meanwhile the Poles checked the other room. In there were two wounded panzer crewmembers from the Army. Both were seriously wounded. One had a leg blown off and the other had been wounded in the groin. They were a real mess. The Poles came in and looked at their black uniforms with death head collar tabs; assumed they were SS and emptied their sten-guns into them. When anyone talks of war crimes, I always think of that incident.”
What do we learn, if we follow “Starinov” and his cock-eyed assumptions? We learn that Poles were, also, a group of atrocity-committing murderers, every single one of them, and that it is all the fault of the senior officers, who allow such a behaviour. Therefore, it is also the fault of the Polish people, for doing such things.
In the final analysis of “Starinov” and his ideas, we learn that Poles and Germans were exactly the same; evil mass-murdering maniacs, with a stamp saying ‘collectively guilty’ attached.
Alright?
Is what “Starinov” tries to sell us.
Do we believe such unfounded nonsense? No, we do not I am glad to say.
Obviously, “Starinov” comes from that spoiled nineties-generation, the kind that watched some American video documentaries, heard about the SS and war crimes vaguely, and thinks he knows all about it all, that he knows the exact feelings of all soldiers involved during conditions of war, that they can judge everything from their cosy chair, and that every German was evil. Of course, Germans started the war, didn’t they? So, they must be evil and every war crime, clearly proven or not is a proof of collective German sub humanity and should be treated as such, right?
No, not right.
“Starinov” carries the Polish eagle as his ‘avatar’. Let us apply his arguments to the Polish behaviour during the second world war.
i.) I refer “Starinov” to my thread ‘Polish atrocities against Germans’, located at http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1960.
From this thread, I quote several parts, I refer to the thread itself for a listing of sources consulted,;
“ […] Several months before Germany invaded Poland, the news and radio services in Poland spread the message that; “daß im Kriegsfalle kein einheimischer Feind lebend entrinnen wird”.”
Translated: “In the case of war, no ethnical enemy (the Volksdeutsche) will escape alive.”
This would indicate a clear pre-planned strategy to commit atrocities against the Volksdeutsche, planned and later executed by Polish soldiers, police and Para-military units.
Following is an example on how these pre-planned atrocities, as explained above, were executed;
“[…]The arrested civilians were brought to Eastern-Poland on foot-marches. Those, who could not follow, were struck dead. Of the 700 arrested Germans from Obornik, 231 were killed during the march”
These are serious crimes, and not to be taken lightly.
ii.) I quote from Gordon Williamson’s ‘Loyalty is my Honour’, p. 137, Rudi Splinter’s account;
“ [...] Meanwhile the Poles checked the other room. In there were two wounded panzer crewmembers from the Army. Both were seriously wounded. One had a leg blown off and the other had been wounded in the groin. They were a real mess. The Poles came in and looked at their black uniforms with death head collar tabs; assumed they were SS and emptied their sten-guns into them. When anyone talks of war crimes, I always think of that incident.”
What do we learn, if we follow “Starinov” and his cock-eyed assumptions? We learn that Poles were, also, a group of atrocity-committing murderers, every single one of them, and that it is all the fault of the senior officers, who allow such a behaviour. Therefore, it is also the fault of the Polish people, for doing such things.
In the final analysis of “Starinov” and his ideas, we learn that Poles and Germans were exactly the same; evil mass-murdering maniacs, with a stamp saying ‘collectively guilty’ attached.
Alright?
To Chief Whip
"“ […] Several months before Germany invaded Poland, the news and radio services in Poland spread the message that; “daß im Kriegsfalle kein einheimischer Feind lebend entrinnen wird”.”
Translated: “In the case of war, no ethnical enemy (the Volksdeutsche) will escape alive.”
Could you tell me from which broadcast was that taken? Which radio station? Because from what I can see it was broadcasted in German in Silesia or near Posen. It was intended for Germans living in Polish territory. Do you really think that a german radio-station would broadcast that kind of message if it was polish-made. Not very likely. Poles would transmitt thaton polish lines. Not German. So your point failed.
I did not say that Poles did not commit atrocities during the 1939 campain. Yes, it occured. But Poles did not have concentration or extermination camps in Germany and they did not attack Germany but vice versa.
And I do not watch american television. I prefer to read.
Cheerio
"“ […] Several months before Germany invaded Poland, the news and radio services in Poland spread the message that; “daß im Kriegsfalle kein einheimischer Feind lebend entrinnen wird”.”
Translated: “In the case of war, no ethnical enemy (the Volksdeutsche) will escape alive.”
Could you tell me from which broadcast was that taken? Which radio station? Because from what I can see it was broadcasted in German in Silesia or near Posen. It was intended for Germans living in Polish territory. Do you really think that a german radio-station would broadcast that kind of message if it was polish-made. Not very likely. Poles would transmitt thaton polish lines. Not German. So your point failed.
I did not say that Poles did not commit atrocities during the 1939 campain. Yes, it occured. But Poles did not have concentration or extermination camps in Germany and they did not attack Germany but vice versa.
And I do not watch american television. I prefer to read.
Cheerio
By the way, try to read the entire thread next time before writing that kind of stuffChief Whip wrote:“only a bunch of guys committed some crimes but they are not so responsible than it appears. and all the otthers [others] are gallant knights.”
Is what “Starinov” tries to sell us.
Do we believe such unfounded nonsense? No, we do not I am glad to say.
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Chief Whip
- Member
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 27 Apr 2002, 17:16
- Location: EU
A rather boring and apologetic answer by “Starinov”, but I feel compelled to answer nevertheless and thereby relieve “Starinov” of his illusions.
“Could you tell me from which broadcast was that taken?”
I refer to the original thread, look up the source and do some serious reading instead of ‘The Great Patriotic War’.
“So your point failed.”
Yes, yes, I’m sure it did. Poles were innocent and kind as newborn pups. After your, very intelligent, rebuttal and scholarly thesis-like way of explaining things even down to the smallest detail –in perfect English – I am sure it did.
But, we are becoming removed from the original topic, as it was butchered by your kind, and, I see it as not such a bright idea to let people such as you push the discussion into a sideway to fulfil their own apologetic agenda.
“Could you tell me from which broadcast was that taken?”
I refer to the original thread, look up the source and do some serious reading instead of ‘The Great Patriotic War’.
“So your point failed.”
Yes, yes, I’m sure it did. Poles were innocent and kind as newborn pups. After your, very intelligent, rebuttal and scholarly thesis-like way of explaining things even down to the smallest detail –in perfect English – I am sure it did.
But, we are becoming removed from the original topic, as it was butchered by your kind, and, I see it as not such a bright idea to let people such as you push the discussion into a sideway to fulfil their own apologetic agenda.
I did some serious reading. I read the thread you posted. And you know what? There is STILL no answer about the origin of that broadcast. So why don't you start by giving me a proper answer instead of changing the subject. This is a HIAG related thread and not polish-war-crimes- zone....Chief Whip wrote:“Could you tell me from which broadcast was that taken?”
I refer to the original thread, look up the source and do some serious reading instead of ‘The Great Patriotic War’.
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Rob - wssob2
- Member
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- Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
- Location: MA, USA
it was about HIAG
but shifted to the LSSAH and now how the Poles started WWII...sigh