HIAG and "Equal Rights" for Waffen-SS by 1961?

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HaEn
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hiag

#46

Post by HaEn » 01 May 2002, 05:19

I have "breathlessly" :D been reading this thread hoping to find a way into this pile of pension money that is somewhere wating for me. Since the war officially ended Dec 1946, I had more than two years service, which should give me and others in the same boat. "something". Come to think of it, even payment of the "Löhnung" (soldierspay) till that date woulf be nice, even nicer with accumulated interest :wink: Alas, I am afraid that it remains a dream, just like the metal part of my E.K.II, of which I only got the ribbon, because that late in the game Apr.45 the hardware was not in stock; come to think of it, nothing was anymore. :? Now I feel sóóó depressed. have to order one through a re-enactment unit I guess. Anyway, get back on track guys pleeeeeeze ? Regards. HN.

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#47

Post by Robert Murphy » 01 May 2002, 09:38

(Starinov, you are truly a hardy fellow.)
Chief Whip wrote:But, we are becoming removed from the original topic, as it was butchered by your kind, and, I see it as not such a bright idea to let people such as you push the discussion into a sideway to fulfil their own apologetic agenda.
So, Chief, re: Starinov: 'His kind?' What exactly is this 'kind?' "Apologetic Agenda?" I've seen plenty of apologism in this thread, but not from Starinov...

Robert
"Direct democracy is founded upon the notion that the people know what is best for them, and deserve to get it. Good and hard."

-H.L. Mencken

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Jörg Muth
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#48

Post by Jörg Muth » 01 May 2002, 12:13

Hello,

I have to admit I am disturbed by the way the discussion develops.
Discriminating posts should have no place in a forum and should therefore be erased. It shows the absence of facts and leads to a “discussion” on the niveau of a barroom. As he is the forum host I ask Timo to watch for rascist posts and delete them.

I will add some things from the end to the beginning. As I didn’t yet get the quote-trick completely I have to write the quotes down.
In general: First of all I wonder about Timo’s age, because he states the events at the cold and miserable crossroad at Baugnez as if he was there. I understand that he has done a lot of research. But it seems it was done without the methods of modern military history. When I started to study I was cautioned by those Profs who had done a lifetime of research in Wehrmacht and SS matters and had interviewed a lot of their members. They told me that those who have endured incredible hardships, fought and killed, seen and sometimes done horrible things, are sure to put you under a certain kind of “spell”. By that time they are about sixty years of age or more and had a lot time to think and make up their past together with their comrades and often appear to be “grand old man”. Their stories are after a time so convincing, that often they are believed without crosschecking them. So we were cautioned never to go for an interview without knowing more about the matter that should be discussed, than the person we would interview.
After all publicly known massacres the officers who were in the units involved made in years up a seemingly convincing story about the incidents which usually put the blame to some private or young lieutenant and made it to a “tragic but not intended incident”. The most infamous example is that of Otto Weidinger the CO of the recon unit of “Das Reich” who managed to shed so much twilight on the massacre in Oradour-sur-glane, that it appeared an all out attack of women and children on the W-SS Regiment involved. Most important is that the stories where often published in english were they always find – for reasons I cant explain - more eager believers.

Timo wrote: “All LAH veterans I know did nothing but fighting.”
That’s of course so. As there were no single Nazis left in Germany at May 9th 1945.


Timo wrote: “But it is simply not fair to condemn a complete unit and everybody who served in this unit between 1933 and 1945 as criminals.”
That’s also true. But to see it the other way around seems to be also dangerous.
As we have - I hope - agreed, the W-SS soldiers were political soldiers.
They were educated not to be equal to other people and other soldiers. They were educated to see themselfs as something better and people of other nations as inferior. It is more likely that a soldiers kills a man whom he sees as an inferior form of life. That’s exactly what the history of the LSSAH is about.
The young age of soldiers adds to that problem. The younger are always the more extreme, because they are easier to influence. Extreme parties have always more young members. The average age of the NSDAP voter was 21. The younger they are the easier it is to integrate them in a military unit. In the military sociology it has long been known that no organization ever integrates an individual as fast and thourough than a military unit. It is known as the application of “regimental-culture” ( even when the unit is no regiment ). So the 17yrs old from the Luftwaffe – who came before that from that AAA ( Flakhelfer ) and before that from the Hitler youth – soon breathed and lived the way of the W-SS.


The massacre of Baugnez: It was clear form the planning of the Ardennenoffensive ( Battle of the Bulge ), that the spearheading units would have no time and commodities to care for prisoners. To invent and execute a plan like the Ardennenoffensive was a crime of its own.
Many german officers who participated stated after the war that there existed a corps-orders not to take any prisoners. Though the order – like so many others – ceased to exist, so it can not be proven.
I certainly doubt that there was such an order from Eisenhower as Timo has stated. There was a great uproar after the events of Baugnez came to the knowledge of SHAEF but no extreme measures were ordered.
It is interesting to note, that german soldiers who are brought in connection with a warcrime often drop their line of military argument and start to use civilian-type explanations. The man responsible for the massacre – no matter how it occurred – was the CO Joachim Peiper. It is doubtful - but not impossible - that he ordered it, but it is evident that he did not make it crystal clear to his men how to ALWAYS treat prisoners. Before difficult actions this was always done in other armies – including the Wehrmacht. There were so many incidents of killings of prisoners and civilians in the way of the Kampfgruppe Peiper that it is indeed doubtful if Peiper had the proper hand with his men. Lack of communications is the rule and not the exception in war. Any CO is aware of that and instills the so called “command-presence” in his unit, which should make them act as if he was there even if he isn’t. Of course only real soldiers can do that.

Before writing a novel I stop here.
Jörg

Rick-rs
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Just a opinion...........

#49

Post by Rick-rs » 01 May 2002, 14:11

Hi People,

For a bit off realisim read this:

My grandfather lived in Hamburg and after falling in love with a Dutch girl he moved to Holland in '32,in '40 just before the Germans invaded Holland my Grandfather and Mother were arrested and for no reason at all tortured,my Grandfather was found by the Germans and just in time rushed to a Hospital,his spleen was torn and he had a few broken bones,
after spending 14 weeks in Hospital he knew that the Dutch population never would treat him normal,and pushed by the Germans he enlisted in the Wehrmacht,after the invasion of Rusland he had proven to be a good soldier and because of his multi-languacity,he spoke Dutch,German,and most off the Scandanavian languages,he was transfered to Wiking.
He was wounded 3 times,the last time very bad because he had a infection.

After the war he said things just happen,the Germans saved his live so he feld that he was doing the right thing by enlisting,he witnessed some terrible fights and gave everything except his live,he never fought for a National Socialistic ideal,he hated politics and Stalin and Hitler where the same for him.he fought for his own live and that off his comrades,he allways said that in a great country like Russia it was hard enough concentrating on your own perimeter,they really had no idea off everything that happened,for news from home they had a pressofficer and ecxept that they knew he lied all the time,never where told anything,it was in early 45 that my Grandfather found out that his native city Hamburg was destroyed,they just didn't tell much to the front soldiers.

Because he was officially Dutch and served in a foreign Army he was put in a Dutch prison after the war,when he came out he tried to pick up his live,the Dutch SS veterans he knew told him that they where send to Indonesia to fight for Holland to protect this colony,this was 3 years after the war,many off the veterans served also in Korea..........

My mother died when I was a child,my father worked in the US,so my Grandparents raised me and did a good job,at 19 i joined the Dutch Marine Corps and in 90 my Grandfather died,he allways did what he could do providing for his family,he never had any kind off pension from the war and when i talked to other veterans at the funeral they told me that my Grandfather was a kind man,realistic and took live a day at the time,he was no hero,when he could dodge a charge he did,and he saved some lives by letting his section hide instead of going into "Walhalla"missions.

I tell you this because i see people judging the Waffen SS as a whole,and that is very narrowminded,my grandfather was no criminal,when a World War develops around you,you get sucked in like a Tornado,today we watch CNN and we know what happens around the world in 40 people had no objective news,things just happened to you,in 44 my Grandfather heard a rumour about camps where people where gassed in a factory like manor,he didn't believe it,would you?
When I think of my Grandfather it's in a thankfull way,he was what he was and lived with it,never complained,this in contrary to the so called resistance fighters in this country who never miss a oppurtiunity to tell how brave they where but never heard a shot fired in anger,when i talk to this people 9 out of 10 lie and tell half true's,the real heroes don't talk.

This story is just one story,there are many more and some prove that a certain Waffen SSer was a criminal and some prove the opposite,so before you start judging think for a change!

Before i forget,my Grandfather had after the war 2 friends,they where regarded as the 3 musketeers,one was called Goudsmit,a well known Dutch/Jewish name,maybe you should talk to him?

All the Best,Rick

Timo
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#50

Post by Timo » 01 May 2002, 15:05

In general: First of all I wonder about Timo’s age, because he states the events at the cold and miserable crossroad at Baugnez as if he was there.
…I am 28 years old. I state things is if I was there, because I talked to numerous people who were and to one who conducted his own research afterwards.
I understand that he has done a lot of research. But it seems it was done without the methods of modern military history. When I started to study I was cautioned by those Profs who had done a lifetime of research in Wehrmacht and SS matters and had interviewed a lot of their members. They told me that those who have endured incredible hardships, fought and killed, seen and sometimes done horrible things, are sure to put you under a certain kind of “spell”. By that time they are about sixty years of age or more and had a lot time to think and make up their past together with their comrades and often appear to be “grand old man”. Their stories are after a time so convincing, that often they are believed without crosschecking them. So we were cautioned never to go for an interview without knowing more about the matter that should be discussed, than the person we would interview.
After all publicly known massacres the officers who were in the units involved made in years up a seemingly convincing story about the incidents which usually put the blame to some private or young lieutenant and made it to a “tragic but not intended incident”.
…I posted about being critical about sources in earlier discussions. Part of that was being critical towards memories of veterans, as they can be divided in what they did and what they think they did. The annual Kompanietreffen are a main factor in how memories are formed. We cross-checked everything as we know that our book will be blown apart if we can't prove everything we write.
Apart from tons of original German, Belgian and French documents, most unpublished, we based some of our findings on memories. My most reliable source in this is a former Oberscharführer, who still has his wartime diary. This man, the teacher mentioned earlier in this discussion, has a very clear view on his former division, including their responsibility for misdeeds. He investigated Baugnez after the war and, in short, came to the following conclusion:
First of all he stated that he can't deny what happened (as many other veterans do). He believes the men in the field were killed by the crew of the present 251's, not by the Panzers. Must say this makes sense to me since he showed me on location why the tanks are out of the question. He also gave me a psychological profile on the men who did it. He said: "imagine these 17-year old grenadiers, green as grass the only thing that makes them feel strong is their gun. A small group of these teenagers is ordered to guard this large group of Americans". He said that he's convinced that the SS-men were probably more scared of the American prisoners then vise versa. And then all over sudden the Americans start moving. After they stopped firing the soldiers realized the consequences of what they did and they decided to kill all survivors. Had they been battle harden veterans nobody would have lived to tell, but even this (fortunately) these rookies couldn't do "right". That, executing survivors, was their real crime.
Now, I fully realize that most people consider the "green soldiers" theory as made up as an excuse, but taking all traceable information into consideration it is most likely what happened.
As for the Parfondruy (Stavelot) case. Many veterans from Kampfgruppe Knittel tried to convince us that nothing happened. Most of them were involved in the approach of Stabskompanie towards Ster and Renardmont on 19.12.1944, but they were not at the scene of the crime (as could be verified beyond doubt). Already one of them had to change his opinion after the evidence we confronted him with. I think you can understand that this was a tremendous shock for this man. After 57 years he was presented evidence against men he knew and trusted. It took some time before he was able to talk to us again.
Timo wrote: “All LAH veterans I know did nothing but fighting.”
That’s of course so. As there were no single Nazis left in Germany at May 9th 1945.
…And what makes you think that we didn't thoroughly check their stories?
Timo wrote: “But it is simply not fair to condemn a complete unit and everybody who served in this unit between 1933 and 1945 as criminals.”
That’s also true. But to see it the other way around seems to be also dangerous.
Like I didn't clearly state that atrocities did happen.
As we have - I hope - agreed, the W-SS soldiers were political soldiers.
They were educated not to be equal to other people and other soldiers. They were educated to see themselfs as something better and people of other nations as inferior. It is more likely that a soldiers kills a man whom he sees as an inferior form of life. That’s exactly what the history of the LSSAH is about.
…In the east, yes. In fighting the Americans, no.
The young age of soldiers adds to that problem. The younger are always the more extreme, because they are easier to influence. Extreme parties have always more young members. The average age of the NSDAP voter was 21. The younger they are the easier it is to integrate them in a military unit. In the military sociology it has long been known that no organization ever integrates an individual as fast and thourough than a military unit. It is known as the application of “regimental-culture” ( even when the unit is no regiment ). So the 17yrs old from the Luftwaffe – who came before that from that AAA ( Flakhelfer ) and before that from the Hitler youth – soon breathed and lived the way of the W-SS.
…Isn't this exactly why a veteran said "we were young and dumb"?
The massacre of Baugnez: It was clear form the planning of the Ardennenoffensive ( Battle of the Bulge ), that the spearheading units would have no time and commodities to care for prisoners. To invent and execute a plan like the Ardennenoffensive was a crime of its own.
Many german officers who participated stated after the war that there existed a corps-orders not to take any prisoners. Though the order – like so many others – ceased to exist, so it can not be proven.
…Yes, they did. At Schwäbisch Hall and during the Malmedy-trial. The most unreliable "confessions" I can think of. If this order was indeed given, doesn't it ske you as odd that out of 600 prisoners made by LSSAH in the Ardennes "only" close to 100 were indeed killed? Fritz Reuß, commander of the supplies company of SS-PzAA1, stated that he received orders to take American prisoners behind the front line in supply trucks. Close to 500 prisoners were indeed moved to Germany. Why was this? Did they act against specific orders from their commanders? Did they organize their transport on their own?
The truth is that the order to take no prisoners never existed. It was invented by the American prosecution prior to the Malmedy trial. Like I said before. The public opinion in America wanted revenge and thus there was no time for a long procedure to find the guilty ones. Unfortunately from this originated the problems we have today. The main public, especially in the States, consider all defendants of the Malmedy trial guilty, those LAH soldiers who were guilty can never be found and the fast majority of LAH veterans live with frustrations for being blamed for crimes they were no part in. Note that it is possible that the guilty ones were among those who were convicted, but if they were that’s a coincidence.
I certainly doubt that there was such an order from Eisenhower as Timo has stated. There was a great uproar after the events of Baugnez came to the knowledge of SHAEF but no extreme measures were ordered.
…Can you support that statement with facts?

And before I forget it. I can't delete messages. I am a forum host, not a moderator.

Regards,
Timo

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HaEn
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grandfather (Opa)

#51

Post by HaEn » 02 May 2002, 05:30

Hi Rick, Thank you for sharing the story of your Opa. I do not understand however why he shortly before the Germans invaded Holland was "tortured". Indeed many N.S.B.ers (dutch nazis) were picked up, and some in the heat of the argument "roughed up". But torture ? Not that I don't believe it, in those panicky days everything was possible. But as an ex Nederlander, who also was "fout" (faulty) I knew many men in the after war camps who told stories about their short incarceration right before the invasion of Holland. but none ever mentioned being tortured. Could it have been that because he had a German name, he was suspected of being a spy or so ? Just curious mind you. also not all of the Waffen SS personnel were given the chance to enter the Koninklijke Landmacht to serve in Indie; There were a few wo did however. I personally was drafted right after I was restored in my rights of citizenship in 1949. Became a noncom (again) within a little over half a year. Thanks again for sharing. Groeten (greetings) H.N.

Rick-rs
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Hello Haen

#52

Post by Rick-rs » 02 May 2002, 08:48

Hello HaEn,

Maybe i did not choose the right words,just like you my native language is Dutch,so excuse me for the slip up,torture is a little bit to much maybe, but nevertheless he was held hostage in a schoolbuilding for several days and regurlaly beated up,the people who did this said they had a nice time with his wife also,aldo this wasn't true,it made him almost crazy.

The reason that they picked on him was because he was German and still had a bit off a accent,and even more important,when he came to Holland he worked at a Shippingcompany in Rotterdam,this was a Dutch Company but by working hard and showing some new ideas he promoted very fast,
not to the delight of the Dutch employees and some off those people where present during"questioning"
After the Germans arrived they took him to Hospital,his spleen was torn,so his was bleeding inside,and most certain would have died within 24 hours, his jawbone was broken,so was his nose and a few ribs and a lower arm, so maybe torture is a strong word but it comes very close,don't you think?

About veterans in Dutch Armies,it is understandable that not all volunteers where enlisted in the Dutch Army,but all i wanted to say is that my Grandfather had a very hard time after the war,his German Family was dead,and in Holland they never left him alone,and he had to deal with a lot off pain,pieces of metal ended up in his joints in his legs,they couldn't do much about it but it gave him a lot of pain,so everybody is telling you that you are a warcriminal,but former collegues from the Eastern front where drafted into the Dutch Army,it's understandable,a real veteran was at that time one off the best soldiers in the world,but my Grandfather had difficulty understanding and dealing with this situation.

Finally i want to say why i posted this,i'm a little tired off people that judge people who had to make certain choises in 1940,they do this with the knowledge they have now,try to place yourself into a man in 1940 and what they knew then,don't get all your facts from books,instead talk to veterans and then form a opinion,my family paid for my Grandfathers choices,my father went on a ship at 19 years old and never came back because of the Dutch attitude,even in my childhood i was the child who lived with the Nazi,so even i had to pay a certain price,later in live when i joined the Marines,i was allmost kicked out because of my grandfather.

If you have a opinion,you will find a book that will support your theory, that dasn't mean you're right,when in Neurenberg the Waffen SS was labeled a criminal organisation,that didn't mean that you should stop thinking,there is no way that by one verdict more than a million are guilty,
things are never this easy.

To HaEn,i've seen your name in a lot off forums the last few years,i know you from Edwin's site,and you are an example off what i try to explain that not every veteran is a criminal,thanks for your opinions and straight forward answers,i hope you are in good health and i wish you all the best,i don't know if you have family left here,but if i can do something to help you in the"old country"feel free to ask.

All the best,Rick

tonyh
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re

#53

Post by tonyh » 02 May 2002, 12:12

>>What do you think not taking prisonners means? Giving them shelter and candies? You just proved that the entire LAH brigade is guilty since the entire brigade received that order from Dietrich and not a unit in particular<<

Starinov, I think you should drop this because your making a fool of yourself. If you want to apply this to the LAH then you have to apply accross the board, because most armies at some stage in their existance gave this type of "take no prisoners" order. Including the US army, like Timo has already stated.
My Grandfather served in Galipoli in the First World War, with the Irish fusileers. He recalled that this order was given to his regiment at one stage in the battle. My father, who was in the Royal engineers in the Second War said that his mate whose div. I can't remember now said that while in France an order like this was given to his div. British divisional commanders in Africa, during the 1800's gave the "no prisoners" order on many an occasion....And I'm damn sure the Russians gave it too during WWII. In your eagerness to damn all the men of the Waffen-SS you are completely missing the mark.

Tony

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Starinov
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#54

Post by Starinov » 02 May 2002, 20:06

All right, let me rephrase my thoughts. I must say that maybe I want a bit too far. You are right when you say that Luftwaffe members were drafted as well as some green guys. They should not pay for other people's mistakes.

But you will surely aggree when I will say that the Waffen-SS committed a higher percentage of war crimes than any other branch of the Wehrmacht. I am stating that on a few facts: in 1942, the Totenkopfverbande became part of the Waffen-SS after Himmler allowed that. Before that year, the TV was apart. Some 40,000 KZ lagers guards were sent back and forth to the Totenkopf, Florian Geyer and Maria Theresa during the whole war. I think I don't have to describe what was going on int hose places. Remember the atrocies committed by SS units during Uprising of Warsaw in 1944. The Dirlewanger and Kaminsky brigades took part in that. The first one was made of common criminals and the second of ukrainians.

In the Balkans, the Prinz Eugen, Handshar and, in a lesser extent, Kama, committed atricities against civilian during oparations against partisans.
The Polizei division did the same in Greece and on the Eastern Front. The LAH was ordered not to take prisonners for a few days in 1941 and was responsible for atrocities, in Italy and Belgium (1943 and 1944 respectively) as well as during the 1940 offensive. The Das Reich committed atrocities in 1944 during D-Day. The Totenkopf memebrs shot some british soldiers in 1940.

Of course, You can not blame the entire division and all men for that. But this list of crimes and atrocities is starting to be a bit too long to overlook it. That why the Waffen-SS was considered a crininal organisation as well as its members. Personnaly I have nothing against the fact that former members of the Waffen-SS are asking for equal rights as for the Heer or Luftwaffe if they are not responsible for any war crimes.

And, by the way, I fully agree with you about the crimes committed by Russians during the WWII. I never found a proof the "not-taking-prisonnners" order issued by Eisenhower. It does not mean it was not issued. I hope that this statement will help understand my position.

And by the way, I thought twice before I started writing my "stupidities"

Chief Whip
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#55

Post by Chief Whip » 02 May 2002, 21:12

“I must say that maybe I want a bit too far”

So you admit to have gone to far. By any means, who tells us you are not going too far here?

“Before that year, the TV was apart.”

Laughing out loud. Amateur. What about the radio?

“Some 40,000 KZ lagers guards were sent back and forth to the Totenkopf, Florian Geyer and Maria Theresa during the whole war.”

If they have then you would not have any trouble demonstrating this by
citing full text. Strange, as Maria Therasia and Florian Geyer were destroyed before the end of the way.

‘I think I don't have to describe what was going on int hose [in those] places.’

A misplaced smart-ass comment, which I will ignore. Try, at least, leaving out the spelling errors if you want to pretend to be a snobby little fellow.

“Remember the atrocies [atrocities] committed by SS units during Uprising [uprising] of Warsaw in 1944.”

Oh wait a minute – now you switched to “the SS”, I thought the Waffen-SS units were discussed here? Please name all Waffen-SS units who took part in the smashing of the uprising, and a detailed list of their war crimes. I can hardly wait.

“ The Dirlewanger and Kaminsky brigades took part in that. The first one was made of common criminals and the second of ukrainians [Ukrainians].”

Criminals? So, they already were criminals? Well, then what are you trying to sell us? You’re trying to prove, by kicking and screaming (and spelling errors) that they were all criminals. Pleonasm or a tautology?

“In the Balkans, the Prinz Eugen, Handshar [Handschar] and, in a lesser extent, Kama, committed atricities [atrocities] against civilian during oparations [operations] against partisans.”

Sigh. Here we go again, let the bells sound and listen to their sound until thee droppeth dead from thy boredometh. “atrocities” against partisans, right, it was fighting terror with terror, in that case the only way. I’m sure “Starinov” has a great deal of respect for his beloved partisans, but considering his childish and utterly stupid contentions, what he thinks isn’t of any importance whatsoever.

I am not aware of Prinz Eugen committing any ‘war crimes’, but the excesses of Handschar are well known – why do you think the division was scrapped? Contrary to popular belief, ‘Handschar’ was never a Waffen-SS division, it was ‘division der SS’.

I’d like to hear the atrocities of Prinz Eugen. Full text please, with source.

“The Polizei division did the same in Greece and on the Eastern Front.”

Polizei rescued over a million Germans, as a part of VII. Panzerkorps, in the Danzig area when your beloved semi-Asiatic liberators came smiling along. Rest of what you have to say is worthless, as you are obviously acting with malice. You have no factual ground whatsoever, so you might as well be talking to open barndoors. Which is, I guess, what you do anyway over there in Canada.

“The LAH was ordered not to take prisonners [prisoners] for a few days in 1941 and was responsible for atrocities,”

Laughing out loud. Someone’s making a fool out of himself. Go on, continue, why did they not take prisoners for four days, and what other vaunted ‘atrocities’ are you talking about?

“in Italy and Belgium (1943 and 1944 respectively)”

No such thing as ‘war crimes in Italy’ by the LSSAH – in Belgium there were some incidents with the local population, so I understand.

“as well as during the 1940 offensive.”

Correct – Mohnke’s Kp. Shot some P.O.W.’s because he thought Dietrich had been assassinated. A stupid mistake, as made often enough in all wars.

“The Das Reich committed atrocities in 1944 during D-Day.”

Laughing out loud. During D-Day? Oh, joy, on 6 June? Text and sources, maestro!

“The Totenkopf memebrs [members] shot some british [British] soldiers in 1940.”

Theodor Eicke was commander at the time, what did you expect? By the way, Knöchlein claimed the British shot some of their P.O.W.’s first.

“But this list of crimes and atrocities is starting to be a bit too long to overlook it.”

6 years of warfare. Six years on the front. What on the earth do Poles, let alone Polish children know about that? What do even I know about that? It is so easy, condemning all these men, while ‘generation-x’ snobs such as yourself would desert at the first shot.

“That why the Waffen-SS was considered a crininal [criminal] organisation as well as its members.

Yes, because the Nürnberger trials had the diaries of each and every one of them, and found indications of 100% collective guilt in them. All well-document gallant officers and soldiers from the Waffen-SS, Peiper, Wünsche, Wittmann, Barkmann, Meyer, Brittich, Hausser and so on never had committed, or ordered, any war crimes. It's impossible that there were any more, of course, since they were all criminals. Wonder what Wittmann did while his comrades were all lending a hand with the genocide? Perhaps he just had to drive around the Eastern Front in his tank? Perhaps that is why his score was so high?

‘And by the way, I thought twice before I started writing my "stupidities"’

How old are you?

Rob - wssob2
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comments on 4th SS war crime: Distovo.

#56

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 02 May 2002, 23:42

Starinov: “The Polizei division did the same in Greece and on the Eastern Front.”

Chief Whip: Polizei rescued over a million Germans, as a part of VII. Panzerkorps, in the Danzig area when your beloved semi-Asiatic liberators came smiling along. Rest of what you have to say is worthless..."


June 10, 1944: Units from SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 7 on an antipartisan sweep, massacre circa 218-300+ Greek civilians in the village of Distomo. George Koch, a member of the Wehrmacht GFP (Geheime Feldpolizei), accompanied the SS troops during the sweep and submits report on the incident. Koch's report states that: the Polizei troops walked through the village without incident, but were later ambused by Greek guerrillas outside of it. The guerrillas escaped, and that the SS troops actually doubled back into the village and began a viscious "atonement action" which included rape and looting as well as shooting civilians. Koch's report directly contradicts the report SS-Hauptstrumführer Fritz Lautenbach, submitted to his battalion CO (SS-Standartenführer Schührers).

June 20: A Red Cross delegation visits Distomo to investigate the incident and find corpses swinging from the trees along the route. News of the massacre travels to the collaborationist Greek government.

Concerned over the impact of the massacre on both the military and political situation in occupied Greece, the Wehrmacht opens up an investigation headed by Special Envoy Neubacher & charges SS-Hauptstrumführer Lautenbach with falsifying a military report. (of course the investigation team neither includes nor interviews Greek civilians) SS-Standartenführer Schührers responds to the charges that although his company is technically guilty of falsifying a report, his unit acted correctly under the circumstances. The inquiry is dropped as the massacre is judged a "military necessity" due to the supposed collaboration between the guerrillas and the Distomo villagers.

Source: Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation 1941-44 - Mark Mazower - Yale University Press – 1993

There is also a website dedicated to the Distovo massacre by 4th SS troops at
http://home.t-online.de/home/Dieter.Beg ... stoeng.htm

Rob - wssob2
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comments on 7th SS Prinz Eugen

#57

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 03 May 2002, 00:22

I am not aware of Prinz Eugen committing any ‘war crimes’,
but the excesses of Handschar are well known – why do you think the division was scrapped?


“Handschar” was scrapped because it suffered from a massive desertion rate– 2,000 men in Sept 1944 alone - as its Bosnian muslim recruits quit and joined Tito’s forces as the tide of the war shifted to the Allies. Actually, the excesses aren’t well known, though widely alleged. George Lepre’s excellent divisional history “Himmler's Bosnian Division” doesn’t delve into any detail about these allegations.
Contrary to popular belief, ‘Handschar’ was never a Waffen-SS division, it was ‘division der SS’.


Waffen-SS divisions were classified according to the “racial component” of their troops, developing categories such as “SS-Panzer/grenadier Division” “SS-Freiwilligen Division” and “Waffen…der SS” Each of these classifications formed a subcomponent of the the 36 divisions commonly described as belonging to the “Waffen-SS” A list of these divisions, including the “Waffen” units can be found in books such as George Stein’s “The Waffen-SS: Hitler’s Elite Guard at War” and Kurt Mehner’s “Die Waffen SS und Polizei 1939-45, which take the records from the SS-FHA as their source. In addition, if “Handschar” wasn’t a “Waffen-SS” division because it had “Waffen” in its title, does that mean that the 20th SS Division, comprised of Estonians and which fought so valiantly at Narva, not a “Waffen-SS” because it had “Waffen” in its title as well?
I’d like to hear the atrocities of Prinz Eugen. Full text please, with source.


March 1944: March 28: Prinz Eugen troops allegedly massacre 834 civilians & burn 500 home in Dorfer Otok, Cornji, Ruda, and Dolac Delnji in Dalmatia – see
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/010.html

m. On or about 28 March 1944, troops of the 7th SS "Prinz Eugen" Division under the command and jurisdiction of the 2d Panzer Army burned, plundered, and looted the Dalmatian villages of Otok, Ovrnje, Ruda, and Dolac Donji.
http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/369Balkan.html

June 15: Elements of the German 7th SS Division "Prinz Eugen" killed the entire population of the village of Ljeskovi Dub near Nevesinje, i.e. 208 men, women and children, while the village was burned down.
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~eesrdan/nd ... scism.html

Note: “Prinz Eugen’s” commanding officer SS- Brigadeführer Karl Reichsritter von Oberkamp was executed April 1 1947 by the Yugoslav government for war crimes against civilians.
See http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/warcrimgenrls.htm

There is documented testimony about alleged war crimes committed by “Prinz Eugen” in the transcripts of the Nurenberg War Crimes trials, but it’s important to point out that the prosecution were often confused by the complex and somewhat chaotic structure of the entire SS organization. Supposedly photo evidence during the trials was admitted showing “PE” troopers beheading captured Partisan prisoners. Interestingly enough, this set of grisly photos have been published in Antonio Munoz’s “Forgotten Legions Addenda” published circa 2000. Mr. Munoz, however, describes the SS troopers in the photos as belonging to the 24th SS Karstjager division, who were beheading captured partisans in revenge for the ambush of an SS patrol.

Former divisional commander Otto Kumm, in his history of the division, stresses that the behavior of the "PE" division was far more correct according to the rules of war than the partisans, Regardless, given the take-no-quarter nature of the fighting in WWII Yugoslavia and the documentation of atrocities committed by all sides, it is likely that the division participated in its share of war crimes.

Timo
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#58

Post by Timo » 03 May 2002, 00:32

Hallo Starinov, Tonyh and Chief Whip,

I am very well aware of the misdeeds of Kaminski, Stroop, Dirlewanger and the SS units involved in anti-partisan actions and in no way do I approve with their horrific behaviour. They were scum. Having said this, I must also underline that I am no expert when it comes to any SS Division other then LAH. Thus my main knowledge about attrocities is about LAH.

When I say that its not fair to condemn a whole unit for the misdeeds of some of its members, I am talking about LAH. Given, I am convinced that this goes for several other SS Divisions as well and thus for the Waffen-SS as a whole, but I am perfectly aware of the fact that several Divisions and Brigade sized Waffen-SS units deserved to be labelled a criminal organization. But to the best of my knowledge, not LAH. After researching many many files, documents and archives, after talking with veterans, I can say that without second thoughts.

Regards,
Timo

Rob - wssob2
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Hi Timo

#59

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 03 May 2002, 01:26

Hi Timo - thanks for your well-thought-out replies on this string. On and offline, you are quite the expert on the LAH and in particular its campaign history during Dec-Jan 1944. :D

I mentioned a couple officers names and you called me on whether they served in LAH - just wanted to say that I quickly picked some names of SS officers who I believe at one time or another served in LAH - but I may be mistaken in a couple of cases, so my apologies!

I think your analysis of Bagnez and Parfondruy have a lot of merit to them, and it is indeed true that many of LAH's troopers suffered in the postwar years for the misdeeds of a few - a situation, of course, which could be applied to the W-SS as a whole. You're quote of the 17 year old "Schultz" ("we were young and dumb") is very telling and touches on the subject of ideological indoctrination - a subject that I was alluding to in my mentioning that many W-SS officers were active participants in other III Reich organizations (e.g. the HJ, Allegemeine-SS, NDSAP, VoMi, etc.) The Schultz was indoctrinated, but did some W-SS officers play an active role in creating and promoting that doctrine? It is the combination of war crimes and ideology that make the W-SS at times such a controversial issue.


Anyone want to steer this conversation back to the subject of veteran's benefits? We've got to Haen's pension $$ to think of. :wink:

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Annelie
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#60

Post by Annelie » 03 May 2002, 14:12

Thankyou to you all for such interesting retorts and Rick I was very
interested in your story. I am always re-formulizing my opinions with
my learning more on various topics.

Would like to know myself and for others though about the veterans
benefits.

Annelie

ps. I really am interested in the veterans opinions

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