Who are they?

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babbi70
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Who are they?

#1

Post by babbi70 » 08 Feb 2009, 19:04

Anyone can help me, I found this photograph in my husbands drawer,any idea who the men are? I can not upload the photo but if you E mail me I send a scan.My upload here on this side does not come through.I think the photo sows SS officiers
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Marcus
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Re: Who are they?

#2

Post by Marcus » 08 Feb 2009, 19:05

Check this thread http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1264863 for instructions on how to upload a photo.

/Marcus


babbi70
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Re: Who are they?

#3

Post by babbi70 » 08 Feb 2009, 19:46

I tried & tried but it just wont work loading the photo.I only just regristred here so I,m totally new. I can send the photo via E mail if you contact me [email protected] Thank you

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Marcus
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Re: Who are they?

#4

Post by Marcus » 08 Feb 2009, 19:58

Send me the photo at [email protected] and I can add it for you.

/Marcus

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Marcus
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Re: Who are they?

#5

Post by Marcus » 08 Feb 2009, 20:07

I've added the photo to the first post in the thread. The problem with adding it was due to it being .bmp file format which we do not support, I changed it to .jpg and attached it.

/Marcus

babbi70
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Re: Who are they?

#6

Post by babbi70 » 08 Feb 2009, 20:25

Thank you so much Sir.

itaiv40
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Re: Who are they?

#7

Post by itaiv40 » 09 Feb 2009, 20:01

May I ask: was your husband in the SS? (That may provide some clue).

babbi70
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Re: Who are they?

#8

Post by babbi70 » 09 Feb 2009, 23:21

No Sir.My husband was in the Flak inside the Reich, his father was in Russia,I dont know what you call these things,Guns on tank chassis, he was not in the SS I know that.Thank you

PATRICK CHARRON
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Re: Who are they?

#9

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 10 Feb 2009, 22:39

Hi,

I think that this photo has already been posted on AHF but I didn't find the thread.
I think that it's Obersturmführer Otto Reuter Chief 5/Deutschland Division Das Reich at the time of an award ceremony in April 1943 by the general Walter Krüger.
A photo of the same film is in Volume 2 German Cross Gold page 131 by Mark C.Yerger

Regards
Patrick

babbi70
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Re: Who are they?

#10

Post by babbi70 » 11 Feb 2009, 18:39

Thank you kindly Sir. t least I know who they are.No relations of us.Thank you again.

PATRICK CHARRON
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Re: Who are they?

#11

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 12 Feb 2009, 00:15

Hello,
I am sorry but I was wrong in my reply. The mistake happened because I answered too quickly without checking because the source was the volume 2 German Cross in Gold Holders of Mark c. Yerger that is a reliable source. But after verification, Otto Reuter was awarded February 14, 1942 and was not anymore with the Das Reich at the time of this ceremony that took place April 20, 1943 in Kharkov.
I have the three volume of Mark C. Yerger on GCIG Holders and I didn't see correction of the wrong caption with Reuter's name
I made the list of all officers and non commissioned officers who received the German Cross Gold in that day and compared with another photo published in the books of Mark C. Yerger Volume 1 Page 270. I think that it could be Reinhold SCHARFE Ostuf chef 1. / Kradschützen Btl 2 German Cross Gold on 09/04/1943 killed 15/08/1943 as chef 3. / AA 2
The Hauptscharführer could be Ernst SCHWEIGER 8./Der Führer (see sleeveband) German Cross in Gold 09/04/1943
The photo page 131 Vol 2 of YERGER is taken on the other side and it is Gert von Reitzenstein Chef 7./Der Führer who is next to him.
On the same row, there are Helmuth SCHREIBER and Alois WEBER Rgt Deutschland Pic Vol 2 p 131
and Pic Vol 1 p 270 August KRAG and Alfred IDEL Stug. Gesch. Abt.
May be Mark C. Yerger could say something about.

Regards
Patrick

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Re: Who are they?

#12

Post by Mark C. Yerger » 12 Feb 2009, 07:25

All the photos ID'd as Reuter within my volumes certainly look like the same man to me. The photos within Reuters biography came to me directly from Heinz Harmel and were period prints with all men's names period inscribed on the reverse when the print was made. Before reading the reverse, I recognized with no doubt the first four and they matched the photo inscription. Reuter (also ID'd with the inscription) I compared with the other photos on page 138, vol. 2 and concluded it was him.

However, I would never claim to be infallible. It could be one of those for whom I could not locate a photo. If so, they were obviously near twins. For me personally, I'd need a photo to compare for the NCO and I never had or saw an image of Schweiger.

Based on other photos I have of Scharfe, I personally don't think it's him. One comment mentioned it would not be Reuter as he already had long ago been awarded his German Cross. However, another explanation is available for Reuter being in a line of soon-to-be decorated men when he did not receive a high award at that time.

Kumm, Krag, and other officers told me there were more than one presentations that day (it was a long list, so multiple assembled lines of men) for the EL (Kumm), KC, and GC. Krag recalled some being "thanked for contributions and given some type of divisional made certificate." Also, a number of officers and NCOs are seen in the award lines who were simply thanked by Krüger or Himmler during his review of award holders, even though they not were awarded a decoration. Some were superiors of the new award holders. Others were various commanders or staff determined to be worthy (for want of a better term) to participate in the award ceremony and be personally thanked by Krüger and later Himmler. To me, based on logic, that could readily explain Reuter being in one of the award lines when he had already been awarded the German Cross in Gold on February 14, 1942.

Another example of superiors or other "guest" personnel in line during a presentation is on page 177. Men about to get the decoration on the right, other personnel at the ceremony on the left. That photo was taken during a later 1943 presentation and the guests include some of the earlier Kharkov ceremony decorated GC holders (such as Weber and Schreiber) who got their awards at the time of the Reuter image ID question under discussion. I consider this guests participation tradition proven, with this 2nd confirmation photo example simply adding weight to the idea Reuter was simply a guest in line at the Kharkov award ceremony.

I never personally saw any such certificate made in the field for the Kharkov period owned by any veteran such as Krag described to me. But based on many other types of unit made decorative documents of different types given within the Krüger command period, I personally assume they existed. Of those given actual awards at the ceremony (a very large gathering, with Krüger addressing the assembly from atop a Tiger tank), I had the most direct contact with Kumm, Stadler, Krag, Weber, von Reitzenstein, and Schreiber. The new KC winners and Kumm's EL (highest awards) were first in a line and first decorated, confirmed in both still photos (vol. 2, page 311), by moving picture film showing the actual presentation, and later that initially decorated group celebrating together showing their new award worn in first day fashion.

Finally and as a tangent side note, when disecting period photos to determine a date, rank insignia is obviously a help if that rank's promotion date is know. However, the wearing of or absense of a decoration is not always a date indicator. I have NUMEROUS photo examples of men not wearing all the awards they had at different times. It was not uncommon for men to not wear the metal version of the GC in combat areas. Others can be seen not wearing their Wound Badges, Close Combat Clasps, etc. The metal version German Cross was heavy, caught on everything when men were on the ground, and was easily damaged. Despite a cloth version being available for purchase by the award holders, many Waffen-SS men I've known did not bother getting them. Therefore, the lack of a particular award being displayed on a uniform does not always date a photo as prior to the man's award date for that decoration.

The soon to be released Volume 4 of the series adds more new career information on "Das Reich" German Cross in Gold holders with its addendum. But when it went to press I nothing regarding (to my satisfaction) a documented confirmation the Reuter ID was wrong in the photo in question. I would very much welcome copies of any inscribed photos, dated letters, personal diaries, or other material of men who were present that day regarding the Reuter question. Likewise, any other new data or images of any of the "Das Reich" GC holders for the volume 5 addendum is welcome. And yes, since volume 4 went to press more new information has already been found for the GC holders of the division for inclusion with volume 5.
Last edited by Mark C. Yerger on 12 Feb 2009, 15:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Ignacio
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Re: Who are they?

#13

Post by Ignacio » 12 Feb 2009, 15:04

The tall Hascha. behind Divisional Adjutant Hastuf. Dieter Kesten is Alois Weber

The Ostuf. behind Gruf. Krüger is Ostuf. Gert von Reitzenstein

I agree the Hascha. from regiment "Der Führer" in the middle should be Ernst Schweiger

The Ostuf. to the right can be Arnold Hansen, Oskar Wolkerstorfer or Reinhold Scharfe. I do not believe he is Otto Reuter, in my opinion he is Rudolf Scharfe.

I found a better copy of the same photo in www.photosammler.de.

Regards

Ignacio

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Re: Who are they?

#14

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 13 Feb 2009, 00:37

Hi Mark,

I thank you for your fast and long detailed answer. I own most of your books and know your expertise on this subject. Your contacts with veterans and photos with captions by the same veterans are first hand references and I cannot say some as much.
But my approach is more pragmatic and I try to follow a certain logic. I don't have either the pretension to be infallible.
My main sources are your own books on the GCiGs 1 to 3, Knights of Steel 1, Waffen SS Commanders 1 and 2, Das Reich Vol 1 to 5 Weidinger and the 10 CDs Führerliste of John Moore
About the decoration that were not allways worn, I will make notice that it was often true to the fight and in the service but certainly very rare the days of awards ceremony and particularly if this decoration was the most important awarded.
I must specify that I checked all photos at my disposal and relating to this ceremony of April 20, 1943 and with regard to those that are on this row I think that they were all there to receive a decoration.
You make reference to the ceremony Vol 2 page 177 but they are not mixed, awarded men are on the left and the others on the right .
The photo Vol 2 Page 275 have nothing to see with the photos of which we are speaking and the men are not all same, for example Weber near Weidinger (and Himmler).
Are you sure that the visit of Himmler was on April 20, 1943 ? Weidinger Vol 3 page 147 only speaks of Krûger about this ceremony. Page 148 it is question of one visit of Himmler and Stadler says "After The battle of Kharkov the Reichsführer made us a visit. In replacement of the Kr Otto Kumm that is already on leave I must lead an exercise with real ammunition".
Kumm was here on April 20,1943.

In the case of our ID Photo, Krag and Idels are on the right of the Ostuf with a Hascha between him and Krag.
If the 5th officer on the photo page 131 do is the one that is the object of this ID photo, it cannot be in any case Otto Reuter who was Hstuf on 30 january 1942. On this photo page 131 he doesn't wear his GCiG. I have a better photo and he is clearly an Ostuf. The Hascha sleeve band to his left is also very sharp and it is about the Der Führer.

I go further in my arguing
Here is the list of the men that has been awarded the GCIG just before April 20, 1943 (thank you to correct if mistakes or to complete)

Brandstätter Johann Hscha 2. / Krad Btl 2 GCIG 09-04-1943
Damsch Werner Ostuf 6. / Deutschland GCIG 17/04/1943 wounded 02/1943
Elfering Norbert Ostuf 5./Pz Rgts 2 CGiGs 09/04/1943 killed the 15/02/1943
Hansen Arnold Ustuf 3. / Krad Btl 2 CGIG 09/04/1943 Ostufs 20/04/1943
Idel Alfred Uscha 2./Stug 2 CGiGs 14/04/1943
Kepp Siegfried Ostuf 3. / Stug 2 CGIG 09/04/1943 wounded 27/02/1943
Krag Ernst Ostuf 2. / Stug 2 CGIC 09/04/1943 Hstufs 20/04/1943
Lorenz Karl Heinz Ostuf 2./Pz Rgts 2 GCiGs 17/04/1943 Hstufs 20/04/1943
Pavelka Hans Ostuf 5./Pz Rgts 2 CGiGs 09/04/1943
Reitzenstein Gert von Ostuf 7. / Der Führer CGiG 09/04/1943 Hstuf 20/04/1943
Scharfe Reinhold Ostuf 1. / Krad Btl 2 CGiGs 09/04/1943
Schreiber Helmuth Ostuf 10./Deutschland GCiGs 09/04/1943
Schweiger Ernst Hascha 8. / Der Führer CGiG 09/04/1943
Ullmann Rudolf Hstuf 11. / Deutschland CGiG 09/04/1943
Weber Standard Oscha 16./Deutschland CGIG 09/04/1943
Wolkerstorfer Oskar Ostuf 15./ Deutschland CGiG 09/04/1943 wounded 03/1943

Here is what I guess.

The wounded, Damsch, Kepp and Wolkerstorfer were not anymore there.
Elfering had died
Pavelka had to wear a black uniform.
Hansen has not been awarded Wound badge in Silver
Lorenz and Ullmann are according to me on the right of the Knight's Cross, photo Das Reich Vol 3 photo beside page 268.
Next are or would be: Schreiber, Weber, Reitzenstein, Schweiger, Scharfe, Brandstätter, Krag and Idel
Another photo in Wenn alle Brüder schweigen shows on the right of Idel the arm wounded Ustuf Boska awarded Army Roll Honor Clasp 18/04/1943 ( later Knight Cross holder).
The awards of Scharfe , Iron Cross 2nd 1939 and 1st Class 1941, Infantry Assault Badge in Bronze 1941 and Wound Badge in Silver 1941 - Gold 1943 correspond to those of the Ostuf ID Picture.

Finally a certain logic with these GCiGs that are on the same row with from left to right, the Rgt Deutschland Officer and non commissionned officer , Rgt Der Führer idem, Krad Btl idem and Stug Abt. idem.

Thank a lot to Ignacio

Regards
Patrick
.

PATRICK CHARRON
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Re: Who are they?

#15

Post by PATRICK CHARRON » 14 Feb 2009, 17:12

Hi,

As the thread of Ignacio doen't work, I post a sharp picture.
Source photosammler.de

About Arnold Hansen Ostuf 20/04/1943 he is only credited both iron crosses 1and 2 in Mark C. Yerger GCiG Vol 1.
Any comments welcome.

Regards
Patrick
DAS REICH DKiG Award ceremony.jpg
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