Himmler's visit to Maribor

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Oberst Mihael
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Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by Oberst Mihael » 08 Feb 2003 20:21

Hello,

What was the main purpose of Heinrich Himmler's 1943 visit to Maribor (I think they call it Marburg-not sure though)?

Also, any pictures available?

trekker
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by trekker » 25 Jan 2013 08:39

Oberst Mihael wrote: What was the main purpose of Heinrich Himmler's 1943 visit to Maribor
Also, any pictures available?
Himmler's second visit to Slovenia took place 4.-5.5.1943.

In Maribor Wehrmannschaft-Sonderstandarte was lined up in front of hotel Orel to Himmler's honour.

Accompanied by CdZ Uiberreither and by expulsion - settlement staff officials Himmler visited the area in Untersteiermark where Germans from Kočevje (Gottschee) area were setlled on properties of Slovene population previoulsy expelled. Himmler showed great interest for and was well informed of events concerning settlement of Germans in Untersteiermark.

Of course, one cannot claim it was the main purpose of his visit.

I have seen a photo of Himmler talking to settlers.

Max Williams
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by Max Williams » 25 Jan 2013 10:38

trekker wrote:
Oberst Mihael wrote: What was the main purpose of Heinrich Himmler's 1943 visit to Maribor
Also, any pictures available?
Himmler's second visit to Slovenia took place 4.-5.5.1943.

In Maribor Wehrmannschaft-Sonderstandarte was lined up in front of hotel Orel to Himmler's honour.

Accompanied by CdZ Uiberreither and by expulsion - settlement staff officials Himmler visited the area in Untersteiermark where Germans from Kočevje (Gottschee) area were setlled on properties of Slovene population previoulsy expelled. Himmler showed great interest for and was well informed of events concerning settlement of Germans in Untersteiermark.

Of course, one cannot claim it was the main purpose of his visit.

I have seen a photo of Himmler talking to settlers.
What is the source for this information please?
Max.

trekker
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by trekker » 25 Jan 2013 11:18

Max Williams wrote:What is the source for this information please?
I found the information in a book by Slovene historian dr Tone Ferenc. I don't have details at hand right now.

Cartaphilus
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by Cartaphilus » 25 Jan 2013 13:11

trekker wrote:
Oberst Mihael wrote: What was the main purpose of Heinrich Himmler's 1943 visit to Maribor
Also, any pictures available?
Himmler's second visit to Slovenia took place 4.-5.5.1943.

In Maribor Wehrmannschaft-Sonderstandarte was lined up in front of hotel Orel to Himmler's honour.

Accompanied by CdZ Uiberreither and by expulsion - settlement staff officials Himmler visited the area in Untersteiermark where Germans from Kočevje (Gottschee) area were setlled on properties of Slovene population previoulsy expelled. Himmler showed great interest for and was well informed of events concerning settlement of Germans in Untersteiermark.

Of course, one cannot claim it was the main purpose of his visit.

I have seen a photo of Himmler talking to settlers.
Where was expelled the Slovenian population from Styria and Carniola areas annexed by Germany? To Croatia?


Thanx from Spain.

Max Williams
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by Max Williams » 25 Jan 2013 13:26

trekker wrote:
Max Williams wrote:What is the source for this information please?
I found the information in a book by Slovene historian dr Tone Ferenc. I don't have details at hand right now.
Thank you. Can I ask you to post the book details when you have a chance please?
Max.

steve248
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by steve248 » 25 Jan 2013 19:00

Max,

This might help you -
National Archives, Kew - reference HW 16/25
GPDD 466d, German police radio messages transmitted 2 May 1943

4/5. 73 de C 0135
Gruppenführer! Der Rf.SS [HIMMLER], der Besuch in AGRAM beabsichtigt, bittet Sie am
4.5.43 spätnachmittags zum Schloss Mokritz bei RANN/Oberkrain zu einer Besprechung
zu kommen. Übernachtung dort vorgesehen. Ich bitte um Bestätigung dieses Fs.
Heil Hitler!
Gez. GROTHMANN, SS Hauptsturmführer. Geheime Kommandosache.

Almost certainly the Gruppenführer in question is Phleps.

trekker
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by trekker » 26 Jan 2013 09:46

Max Williams wrote: Can I ask you to post the book details when you have a chance please?
I'll do that.
But I have found additional information on Himmler's visit in a newspaper article published in Marburger Zeitung on Friday (Freitag), 7.5.1943.

Himmler arrived from Carinthia (Kärnten) on Tuesday (Dienstag) and was wellcomed by Uiberreither and Steindl in Dravograd (Unterdrauburg). He arrived to Maribor (Marburg) at noon where he stopped for a short time. In late afternoon he arrived to Bistrica na Sotli (Königsberg am Sattelberg) where he met settlers from Kočevje (Gostschee) area. He cotinued to Bizeljsko (Wisell) where he met settlers from Besarabia. He met German settlers on his way to Krško (Gurkfeld), Cerklje (Zirkle) and Krška vas (Munkendorf). He arrived to Brežice (Rann) in the evening. On Wednesday (Mittwoch) he met Ante Pavelić in Zagreb (Agram).

The article was subtitled: Besuch bei den Gottscheern und Bessarabiern im Ansiedlungsgebiet. That and Himmler's itinerary reveal that his visit was indeed dedicated to German settlers. On the other hand he (just) passed Untersteiermark on his way to Zagreb that was his final destination. On his way back he stopped in Graz.

Max Williams
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by Max Williams » 26 Jan 2013 10:58

Thank you; one and all.
Max.

trekker
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by trekker » 28 Jan 2013 08:17

Here's as promised.

source:
Tone Ferenc: Nacistična raznarodovalna politika v Sloveniji v letih 1941-1945, Maribor, 1968

page 300
Himmler was resolved that settlement of Germans from Kočevje (Gottschee) area should be done in 1941 as Hitler had promised to their representatives during his visit in Maribor 26.4.1941.

page 632
The area by the rivers Sava and Sotla was designed as the »settlement area A« where entire Slovene population should be expelled and substituted by German settlers, mostly from the Kočevje (Gottschee) area. It was supposed to become a German national stronghold against neighbouring Slovenes and Croates in the south. The rest of Untersteiermark was the »settlement area B«.

page 665
Himmler showed constant interest in settling Germans from Kočevje (Gottschee) area. His correspondence with Uiberreither revealed he was much in favour to them and knew details on the matter. In his letter to Greifelt dated 19.12.1942 he mentioned names of incapable (Hermann) capable (Busse, Müller) and worthy (Schallermayer (Schallermayer was Himmler's good acquaintance – page 655)) officials from the office of Beauftragten des Reichskommissars für die Festigung deutschen Volkstums in Maribor. Himmler also mentioned officials (Königs, Almache) of the German settlement company (Deutsche Ansiedlungsgesellschaft) which managed properties of expelled Slovene population until handed over to newly settled Germans. Its inefficiency was much criticized – also by Himmler in December 1942. (And by Lurker in his report to Hintze 17.2.1942. - pages 653 and 720).
In the beginning of May 1943 Himmler visited the settlement area A and talked to German settlers. He was accompanied by Uiberreither, Seftschnig and Schallermayer. Protection of the settlement area A against partisan attacks was also a matter of discussion.

page 666
a photo of Himmler talking to German settlers in Bizeljsko

page 722, footnote 318a
Photographs of Himmler's visit to Maribor and to the settlement area A on 4.-5.5.1943 were kept in Muzej ljudske revolucije Slovenije in Ljubljana.
NOTE: Nowadays it's Muzej novejše zgodovine Slovenije.


Question:
What did Himmler and Pavelić discuss in Zagreb?

trekker
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by trekker » 29 Mar 2013 07:51

Cartaphilus wrote: Where was expelled the Slovenian population from Styria and Carniola areas annexed by Germany? To Croatia?
Sorry for a late reply, Cartaphilus. I overlooked your post in January and have noticed it only now.

First, let me point out that occupied territories of Styria and Carniola were governed as if they were part of Third Reich but legally they were not although it had been planned to annex them. For additional information see
annexation of Slovenia
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=80060

Second, let me give information on expulsion of Slovene population which was Himmler's responsabilty.

The first wave of expulsion took place between 7.6. – 10.7.1941. In 17 transports 7.259 people were deported from Styria and Carniola. They were deported to Serbia except the following among them:
217 priests from Styria were deported to Zagreb (Croatia) 5.7.1941.
169 priests from Carniola were deported to Slavonski Brod (Croatia) 10.7.1941.
71 Croats from Styria were deported to Croatia. That was the only case of deporting Croats.

The second wave of expulsion took place between 11.7. – 27.9.1941. In 21 transports 9.963 people were deported from Styria only to Croatia and Bosnia.

The third wave of expulsion took place between 24.10.1941 – 30.7.1942. In 62 transports about 36.280 people were deported from area nearby Sava ad Sotla rivers in Styria, bordering NDH and Italian occupied Slovene territory. They were deported to numerous places in Germany.

Between 7.12.1941 – 18.5.1942 in 7 transports 64 families with 194 members were deported to camp Schelklingen bei Ulm. These were Slovenes considered suitable for germanization because of good results in racial assessment.

The above deportations had been planned before the occupation and were part of the germanization process of the occupied territories. Apart from that, there were deportations that took place as a reprisal measures. Deported were family members and close relatives of killed partisans and executed prisoners. In 31 transports 4.185 people were deported from Carniola between 26.3.1942 – 22.8.1944. About 4.000 people were deported from Styria between August 1942 – June 1943. They were all deported to various places in Germany.

related topics:

Eichmann in Slovenia
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38502

Reichenburg (Lower Styria)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=45740

Frankolovo – post by trekker on 04 Jun 2012, 08:27
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=45

Cartaphilus
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by Cartaphilus » 31 Mar 2013 18:06

What is very interesting uentas. If the Italian regime in the province called Ljubljana (former Carniola) was more kind to the slovenians, why the Germans expelled them to Croatia and not to the region occupied by the Italians?

And on this subject I have a question: how many ethnic Germans were living in areas annexed by Germany before April 1941? Did Germany justify the annexation with population criteries, as succeded in the Sudetenland?

trekker
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by trekker » 02 Apr 2013 06:54

Cartaphilus wrote:What is very interesting uentas. If the Italian regime in the province called Ljubljana (former Carniola) was more kind to the slovenians, why the Germans expelled them to Croatia and not to the region occupied by the Italians?

And on this subject I have a question: how many ethnic Germans were living in areas annexed by Germany before April 1941? Did Germany justify the annexation with population criteries, as succeded in the Sudetenland?
When Germany occupied Yugoslavia in April 1941 plans had already been made to expell 220-260 thousand people from the occupied Slovene territories Carniola and Styria which was one third of the population. According to initial plan deportations should have been finished by October 1941. Arrests started immediately, deportations started 7.6.1941. Third Reich authorities planned to expell all Slovenes to Serbia except those found racially pure enough to be germanized who would be deported to Germany. However, after the first wave of deportations Serbian authorities refused to accept further deportees. The second wave of deportations headed to Croatia because an agreement was made that NDH accepted Slovene deportees but in exchange NDH deported equal number of Serbians from Croatia to Serbia. Finally, Germany could not expell Slovenes neither to Serbia nor Croatia so in the third wave they were deported to Germany and used as labour force there. Thus, about 54.000 people were expelled. In addition, about 17.000 people fled to Italian occupied Ljubljana province and to Croatia by their own decision to avoid forced German expulsion. Adding over 8.000 people deported as a reprisal measure about 80.000 people were deported from the occupied Slovene territories Carniola and Styria which represented about 10% of the population.

I don't quite understand your question why Germans didn't expell Slovenes to Ljubljana province where Italian regime was more kind compared to that of Germany in the occupied territories Carniola and Styria. Kindness was no concern of German authorities. To deport people to Ljubljana province they needed Italian approval which was probably impossible to get considering about 17.000 refugees had already arrived. Mind the fact that the western part of today Slovenia was occupied and then annexed by Italy after WWI. What remained was split in April 1941 among Germany, Italy and Hungary. While Germany got 10.260 km2 with about 800.000 people Italy got only 4.550 km2 with about 340.000 people. Tens of thousand of refugees in Ljubljana province would have represented a great problem of housing and provison. Besides, Ljubljana province was too close and there was a risk of once deported intelligentsia and other patriots to illegaly cross the border and return to organize resistance.

Ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia were neither ther reason nor the excuse for Germany to invade Yugoslavia 6.4.1941.

According to 1931 census 12.726 Germans lived in Slovene Styria. Ethnic Germans themselves claimed they were 36.638 which was the number of votes received by German list of candidates on political elections in 1928. (source: Franjo Baš, 1991) There were no ethnic Germans in Carniola but they lived in Kočevje area whch was part of the territory known as Ljubljana province during WWII.

Cartaphilus
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by Cartaphilus » 03 Apr 2013 19:40

trekker wrote:Ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia were neither ther reason nor the excuse for Germany to invade Yugoslavia 6.4.1941.

According to 1931 census 12.726 Germans lived in Slovene Styria. Ethnic Germans themselves claimed they were 36.638 which was the number of votes received by German list of candidates on political elections in 1928. (source: Franjo Baš, 1991) There were no ethnic Germans in Carniola but they lived in Kočevje area whch was part of the territory known as Ljubljana province during WWII.
I guess that Germany annesed these áreas of South Styria and North Carniola as part of the old Habsburg Empire. Otherwise, I find no reason for the incorporation of these lands to Germany.

trekker
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Re: Himmler's visit to Maribor

Post by trekker » 05 Apr 2013 07:17

Cartaphilus wrote: I guess that Germany annesed these áreas of South Styria and North Carniola as part of the old Habsburg Empire. Otherwise, I find no reason for the incorporation of these lands to Germany.
Facts may not support your theory. Here's what I know:

The Third Reich (successor to Austria) and Yugoslavia (successor to The State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs) were both among successor states to Austro-Hungarian empire that was dissolved by the Treaty of Saint-Germain. Referring to the Treaty of Saint-Germain when claiming part of Yugoslavia would make the claim a multilateral issue. As far as I know, such a claim was never made by the Third Reich.
The Third Reich and Yugoslavia signed the Tripartite Pact on 25.3.1941. After a coup d'état 27.3.1941 the new Yugoslav government assured Germany it would adhere to the Pact but nevertheless the invasion of Yugoslavia started 6.4.1941.
The invasion was illegal to international law. First, it broke the Kellogg–Briand Pact in which signatory states (among them both Germany and Yugoslavia) promised not to use war to resolve disputes or conflicts. Second, it violated article one of the Hague Conference 1907 (Opening of Hostilities) according to which Germany should not have commenced hostilities against Yugoslavia without previous and explicit warning, in the form either of a reasoned declaration of war or of an ultimatum with conditional declaration of war.
After Carniola and Styria had been occupied it was illegal to annex them to the Third Reich according to the Hague Conference 1907 (The laws and customs of war on land - art. 43; 45; 55). In fact, they had never been annexed to the Third Reich although it had been planned to annex them. A draft of a Hitler's decree to annex occupied Slovene territories to the Third Reich was made first in August then in Sptember 1941. Its signing had been postponed several times but it had never occured.

Considering the role of ethnic Germans it is a fact that they were neither the reason nor the excuse for Germany to invade Yugoslavia 6.4.1941. However, I am positive that if Germany had not invaded Yugoslavia 6.4.1941 and it had won WWII it would have demanded from Yugoslavia at least the territory of Slovene Styria because of ethnic Germans living there. Ethnic Germans in Styria were disappointed when they remained in Yugoslavia after WWI and soon after Hitler seized power they became pro-nazi hoping Hitler would manage to annex Styria. They were in close contacts with authorities in Germany and Austria performing various activities aimed at annexing Slovene Styria to Austrian Styria. In Graz two institutions were established to facilitate these activities which were illegal and hidden from Yugoslav authorities. When Yugoslavia was invaded, armed ethnic Germans seized power in Maribor in Ptuj before the arrival of the German army. When arrests of Slovene intelligentsia started in April 1941 they were based on lists of Slovenes prepared by SD in Graz based on information given by ethnic Germans in Styria before the invasion. However, ethnic Germans were less important to Hitler than the alliance of Germany and Yugoslavia. When the pact of 25.3.1941 was signed ethnic Germans in Styria were very much upset and puzzled.

By the way, we have been drifted off the topic (Himmler in Maribor).

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