SS-Stubaf. Bruno Boysen

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Max Williams
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SS-Stubaf. Bruno Boysen

#1

Post by Max Williams » 14 Aug 2015, 16:14

Is this the same man? If so, I believe he is Danish.
Max.
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SS Stubaf. Danmark.jpg
Bruno Boysen

Halfdan S.
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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#2

Post by Halfdan S. » 14 Aug 2015, 22:27

Is this the same man?
According to the name of the photo "4854844_inscenizacja-historyczna-bettle-of-berlin-1945" it should have been taken during the Battle of Berlin?! Which off course couldn't be if he is the same guy - unless he had been degraded.

The pic - indeed showing a Polish reenactor - was deleted by this moderator/D. Z.
Max, why would you think that he was danish?
Best
Halfdan S.


Max Williams
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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#3

Post by Max Williams » 15 Aug 2015, 02:01

Halfdan S. wrote:Max, why would you think that he was danish?
Best
Halfdan S.
My knowledge of the Waffen-SS volunteer units is not great and I accept I might well be wrong. The photo I posted was taken at a memorial service in Copenhagen (with Werner Best) for a fallen Danish Waffen-SS officer.
Max.

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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#4

Post by Halfdan S. » 15 Aug 2015, 10:56

Yes, his shield seems to be norwegian, wanted to mention it in my post but forgot. Max, that would have be the memorial service for Schalburg … I reckon there were some 225-250 danish Waffen-SS officers. I guess that I've seen photos of at least 2/3 of them and I don't believe that I have seen this guy before. My guess is that he represented for example Germanische Leitstelle.
Best
Halfdan S.

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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#5

Post by Max Williams » 15 Aug 2015, 13:30

You might be correct. However, the man in my post is seated in the front row, next to the widow and Werner Best, so the chances are that he is Danish also.
I do not think the Norwegian man posted by you is the same guy.
Max.

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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#6

Post by Halfdan S. » 15 Aug 2015, 13:42

Should have done my research properly after you mentioned that the photo was taken at a memorial service - the only one that I know of is the one for Schalburg. Here is a photo that includes the front row:
bd-13-177.jpg
bd-13-177.jpg (35.87 KiB) Viewed 1602 times
Theres a better copy here: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helga_Schalburg - it tells us that he is Bruno Boysen (Germanische Leitstelle)
Best
Halfdan S.

Max Williams
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SS-Stubaf. Bruno Boysen

#7

Post by Max Williams » 15 Aug 2015, 16:41

Halfdan S. wrote:Should have done my research properly after you mentioned that the photo was taken at a memorial service - the only one that I know of is the one for Schalburg. Here is a photo that includes the front row:
bd-13-177.jpg
Theres a better copy here: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helga_Schalburg - it tells us that he is Bruno Boysen (Germanische Leitstelle)
Best
Halfdan S.
And Bruno Boysen was ...... Danish.
Max.

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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#8

Post by Halfdan S. » 15 Aug 2015, 23:16

Sorry about the photo, didn't realize that it was of an reenact or :oops: got fooled by the black-white photo, though I must admit that I was impressed by the quality of the photo without doubting it - only doubting that it was from Berlin 1945.

Nope, Bruno Boysen wasn't danish. He was born in Haderslev when the city belonged to Germany 1864-1920, hence he was German. If he wanted to be danish he would have had to take "option" for Denmark, that is actively seek danish citizenship. But according to this he was German: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Boysen. He might well have spoken danish due to the mixed German/Danish population living north and south of the 1920-border. Whatever he doesn't figure in any lists over Danish officers … I'll have a look at him the next time I'm in Berlin.

Best
Halfdan S.

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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#9

Post by Max Williams » 16 Aug 2015, 13:28

Halfdan S. wrote: Nope, Bruno Boysen wasn't danish. He was born in Haderslev when the city belonged to Germany 1864-1920, hence he was German. If he wanted to be danish he would have had to take "option" for Denmark, that is actively seek danish citizenship. But according to this he was German: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Boysen. He might well have spoken danish due to the mixed German/Danish population living north and south of the 1920-border. Whatever he doesn't figure in any lists over Danish officers … I'll have a look at him the next time I'm in Berlin.

Best
Halfdan S.
The nationality of people born in Haderslev between 1864 and 1920 is open to question. Although clearly a Danish town (it is about 50kms inside the Danish border) it was administered by the Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein during that period. Technically, Boysen was a joint Danish-Prussian national, so it can be argued he was both Danish and German (i.e. joint nationality.) Morally, he was more Danish than German, but legally a joint national can subsequently choose either nationality. In any case, for our purposes here, he was more Danish than any other Scandinavian nationality.
Regards,
Max.

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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#10

Post by Georges JEROME » 16 Aug 2015, 14:37

Hello,

Regarding Bruno Boysen,

Here are John Moore Führerliste der Waffen-SS datas :

Boysen, Bruno SS-Stubaf.
20. 3.13 Bredstedt
SS 21358
Pz.GR.24 1.45
SS-Stubaf. SS-Hauptamt, Amt VI 1.44
SS-Hstuf. Chef,4./Art.Rgt.5 11.41
SS-Hstuf. Chef,8./Art.Rgt.3 5.40
SS-Ostuf. Hauptamt SS Gericht 1.35
SS-Mann LSSAH 7.33

Bredstedt is a town of Nordfriesland (Schleswig Hostein).

Georges

Max Williams
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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#11

Post by Max Williams » 16 Aug 2015, 16:43

Georges,
I agree that Bredstedt is an indisputable German town, but several alternative sources state Boysen's place of birth was Haderslev. Only Moore gives Bredstedt which is about 80kms from Haderslev. I do not know which is correct.
Max.

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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#12

Post by Halfdan S. » 16 Aug 2015, 22:22

Sorry Max, but I don't see how Boysen could be a joint Danish-Prussian national, and especially not "morally more Danish than German". As far as I know both States (Germany 1864-1920; Denmark after 1920) were rather strict about people living in their land being loyal subjects of that particular Country. Prussia didn't conquer Nordschleswig in 1864 having in mind that it should at some point come back to Denmark. Administratively it was part of Schleswig-Holstein that was a prussian province and from 1871 was part of the (2.) German Reich. Danish schools were illegal and danish unions etc. were outlawed. Large amounts of Germans settled in Nordschleswig and Prussia brought in German Civil servants, while danish teachers, preachers etc. were dismissed. The Boysens might have belonged to the danish minority living south of the Danish border, but at the moment we don't know … The common danish (or normally considered so) -sen names are also rather common in the whole of Northwest Germany (Carl Stobbe Dethleffsen, Botschafter Hans Thomsen, Stell. GL Harry Henningsen, SS-Obersturmführer Boy Hansen (Frikorps Danmark) just to mention a few). Hjalmar Schacht wasn't Danish either just because he was born in Tinglev. Having joint the LSSAH in 1933 I'm quite sure that Bruno Boysen wasn't Danish or more important, considered himself Danish - he might very well have spoken Danish if he was brought up in Haderslev, hence being send to Denmark to stamp up information.
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Halfdan S.

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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#13

Post by Max Williams » 17 Aug 2015, 01:31

And that is exactly why there is conjecture over nationality. There are those that argue it always was Danish, but administered by Schleswig-Holstein for a short period, and those that argue it was Prussian during the Schleswig administration. Much the same as the Falklands, the Sudetenlands, parts of Poland, etc. Arguments on both sides. Morally and geographically, it was Danish - politically it was forced to be German for a very short time. Anyway, he might not even have been born there!
Max.

Halfdan S.
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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#14

Post by Halfdan S. » 17 Aug 2015, 19:03

Max Williams wrote:And that is exactly why there is conjecture over nationality. There are those that argue it always was Danish, but administered by Schleswig-Holstein for a short period, and those that argue it was Prussian during the Schleswig administration. Much the same as the Falklands, the Sudetenlands, parts of Poland, etc. Arguments on both sides. Morally and geographically, it was Danish - politically it was forced to be German for a very short time. Anyway, he might not even have been born there!
Max.
Sorry, but I don't agree in the case of Boysens nationality - does that mean that people in Gibraltar are morally spanish? Fact is that the population in Nordschleswig/Sønderjylland (note the German and Danish names for the same area depending on whether you see it as a northern or southern part of your respective country) are mixed as it comes from living in a border region. As I said many Germans moved into the area 1864-1920. What will define Boysens nationality is his background. If he came from a German background he is clearly German - note that he joined the LSSAH in 1933. The first Danish officer that joined the SS was in 1938 and he came from a German background in Southern Jutland - all the rest joined in the 1940s. To clarify the situation note that we in Denmark had two NS-parties: DNSAP and NSDAP-N. The one wanted cooperation, the other wanted to go "Heim ins Reich". But as you say (place of birth) we need to know more about Boysen before we can define his nationality.
Best
Halfdan S.

Max Williams
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Re: Request for Identification of SS-officers

#15

Post by Max Williams » 18 Aug 2015, 01:05

Again, I disagree. The main indicator of a person's nationality is the place of birth, not the background, although that can be used to apply for a different nationality. Anyway, does it matter? To be honest, no. Let's just say that you and I have different views.
Max.

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