Vlassov and Fegelein

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DavidFrankenberg
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Vlassov and Fegelein

#1

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 01 Oct 2017, 22:58

Himmler in his speech at Posen talks about Fegelein having corrupted in a very malicious way a soviet general.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=215&p=849&
Brigadier Fegelein And The Russian General

Our comrade Fegelein once captured a Russian general like that. Look, they're cheap. They're Slavs. Full of humour, as Fegelein is, Fegelein told his Staff: We'll treat this one real good. We'll act like we're going to recognise him as a general. So, when he comes in, stand up, stand at attention, keep quiet, say General Sir, this and General Sir, that, show him how much respect you have for him. Of course, this worked. You don't need to give a Russian general any political ideas, political ideals, or political plans for the future. You can get them cheaper than that, gentlemen. The Slavs are known for that.

(...)

Our Fegelein treated his general that way, and his general told us everything that such a brave, courageous commander really shouldn't ever tell at all, everything from his battery positions to his divisional marching plans and orders (he had a whole offensive army). He gave us everything ripe for the slaughter. It was clear in his mind that after all his blabbering -- he was never asked anything directly, not with a single word -- that he really couldn't go back to Little Father Stalin, even though he wore the Order Of Stalin number seven hundred and something, a sort of Great Knight's Cross from over there, which he then gave Fegelein as a gift. Fegelein gave the medal to The Leader, and The Leader gave it back to Fegelein in a very nice silver box. Just thought I'd mention it.

Vlasov Again

When Fegelein told me the story of the general, I said, Sure, we can do everything. The man gets promised everything and he'll get it, too. He gets the pension of a German Lieutenant General (he's a Russian lieutenant general). He gets good food, liquor, women.

That's really disgustingly cheap. A torpedo costs, what do I know, 10,000 Reich Marks, as soon as we fire it. The preliminary concentrated artillery fire for a single Division or Corps costs many hundreds of thousands. We don't even know whether the fire will be as effective in every case as when we buy just one cheap Russian general.

Of course, it doesn't go like that formally; you don't say, You get 100,000 Reich Marks down, now betray everything to us. Of course, he won't do it. Comrade Slav has a few points of honour here. You have to go about it differently. Let's figure it out. How much pension does he get? 1,500 Reich Marks a month, that's 18,000 Reich Marks a year. Let him live 10 years, that's 180,000 Reich Marks. Miscellaneous expenditure is 20,000 Reich Marks. That's 200,000 Reich Marks total. It's really cheap if you get a Russian offensive army for it. You can do that with every Russian general, every one. We really shouldn't take them so seriously. If we could do that, then things would go right. But we Germans handle it so badly, I must say, in the State and the Armed Forces, that even many a Party comrade has walked on that bird's lime and become stuck.

Mr. Vlasov has made speeches in Paris, in Brussels, in Berlin. At his feet sat astonished members of the German Leadership Corps; their mouths hung wide open, their noses fell right down into their mouths out of sheer astonishment: Golly! That Bolshevik can do simply everything. And they let that butcher's assistant tell them so. I took the trouble to read his whole speech once. I'll write an opinion on this speech, and send it to you in the near future. Mr. Vlasov says: It's a shame how the Germans treat the Russian Folk. We Russians abolished corporal punishment decades ago. (Sure, they abolished it. That's why they shoot them now instead. That's just another kind of incentive.) You Germans reintroduced corporal punishment, oh, how barbarous, how low down. Everybody in the audience feels ashamed. A few minutes later he claims: How nationalistic the Russians are, you must appeal to their nationalistic soul. Can't you just see how the victor over Field Marshal Paulus, General X (I no longer recall his name), who was locked up by the GPU for years, beaten, whipped, and tortured, so that he suffers from hip pain even today and has a severe head injury, was victorious over Paulus at Stalingrad out of pure nationalism?

Nobody contradicts him. I thought the Russians had abolished corporal punishment. Apparently, among the Russians, only the generals are beaten up, to get better results out of them. This Vlasov ballyhoo has gone around Germany without contradiction. Instead of skilfully making propaganda out of it, to disintegrate the Russian army, this propaganda has been turned against us, and has to some extent paralysed the strength of resistance and the will to resist of our own ranks through errors and false notions.

Did any historian study this ? What is the part of the right and wrong there ? Did Vlassov really give his medal to Fegelein ? Is the fabulous and famous betraying of Vlassov due only to Fegelein's malice as it is said in Himmler' speech ?

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Vlassov and Fegelein

#2

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 02 Oct 2017, 07:55

Nonsense...as Fegelein had nothing to do with the capture of Wlassow....

Jan-Hendrik


DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Vlassov and Fegelein

#3

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 02 Oct 2017, 18:06

You mean Himmler lied or the text of the speech is not the real one ?

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wm
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Re: Vlassov and Fegelein

#4

Post by wm » 02 Oct 2017, 18:16

DavidFrankenberg wrote:Our Fegelein treated his general that way, and his general told us everything that such a brave, courageous commander really shouldn't ever tell at all, everything from his battery positions to his divisional marching plans and orders (he had a whole offensive army). He gave us everything ripe for the slaughter.
The whole "offensive army" had been completely destroyed weeks before Vlasov was captured.
He couldn't tell them "everything" about an army that didn't exist anymore.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Vlassov and Fegelein

#5

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 02 Oct 2017, 20:40

Thank you all for your comments.
So, it seems very wrong. The point is now to know if the text is the real speech or a forgery. If it is the real one, why Himmler would have lied this way ?
The text is taken from the link cited above, itself copied from the "Jeff Hill old site" (no more online).

Does anyone has the real good text of the Himmler' speech in Pozen ? Since we can find many pieces of it dealing with the Holocaust, it should be possible to get its entirety ? But, where ? If we can not get the entirety, why could we get only parts of it dealing with the Holocaust ? Since this part on Vlassov and Fegelein is wrong, why the one on the Holocaust could not be a forgery as well ?

Sorry for so many questions. But, i have to ask.

Mark V.
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Re: Vlassov and Fegelein

#6

Post by Mark V. » 02 Oct 2017, 20:41

If you read it carefully, Himmler's speech doesn't explicitly refer to Vlassov. He was describing a different incident. As a battle group commander in southern Russia in winter 1942/43 Fegelein captured general Privalov (Commander 15th Rifle Corps). Apparently Privalov later served in Fegelein's 8. SS-Kav.Div. LINK. See also http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Per ... eleinH.htm

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Vlassov and Fegelein

#7

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 02 Oct 2017, 22:54

Mark V. wrote:If you read it carefully, Himmler's speech doesn't explicitly refer to Vlassov. He was describing a different incident. As a battle group commander in southern Russia in winter 1942/43 Fegelein captured general Privalov (Commander 15th Rifle Corps). Apparently Privalov later served in Fegelein's 8. SS-Kav.Div. LINK. See also http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Per ... eleinH.htm
Thank you very much Mark !
Indeed, i first read it like you do, but since i was unable to put a name on this general, i "logically" conluded it was Vlassov.

Indeed he is Privalov. Many thanks Mark !

NBrotz
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Re: Vlassov and Fegelein

#8

Post by NBrotz » 03 Oct 2017, 03:56

I'm curious as to the identity of the "General X" that Himmler mentions Paulus having surrendered to, and previously suffered at the hands of the GPU. The obvious candidate is Konstantin Rokossovsky. However, while I've read about Rokossovsky having his fingernails torn out, his teeth knocked out (replaced with steel dentures - was this the head injury Himmler was referring to?), and rips broken, I'm curious as to the hip pain. For the record, how would Himmler know about the specifics of Rokossovsky's injuries?

It sounds like a twisting of facts on Himmler's part, that the basic premise is correct but the details aren't verified or outright lies. It makes you question the validity of the rest of his speech.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Vlassov and Fegelein

#9

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 03 Oct 2017, 12:22

NBrotz wrote:I'm curious as to the identity of the "General X" that Himmler mentions Paulus having surrendered to, and previously suffered at the hands of the GPU. The obvious candidate is Konstantin Rokossovsky. However, while I've read about Rokossovsky having his fingernails torn out, his teeth knocked out (replaced with steel dentures - was this the head injury Himmler was referring to?), and rips broken, I'm curious as to the hip pain. For the record, how would Himmler know about the specifics of Rokossovsky's injuries?

It sounds like a twisting of facts on Himmler's part, that the basic premise is correct but the details aren't verified or outright lies. It makes you question the validity of the rest of his speech.
Yes, i see no other candidate except Rokosovski for the identity of "general X". He is the one who received the surrender of Paulus, and he was tortured and jailed by the NKVD before the war.
So, indeed, this speech sounds very true.

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