SS divisional "shield" insignas

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Sauerkraut
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SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by Sauerkraut » 03 Jan 2018 10:59

Hello!

Looking at the SS division insignas, it can be noticed that the shape of the shield can of several sorts : with a "half circle" taken off in the top right (LSSAH, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Hitlerjugend...)/left (Polizei, Nordland, Götz von Berlichingen...)corner, in top center (Nord, Prinz Eugen, Florian Geyer..), or the shield can be "full" (non-germanic division?) .
Does the form of the shield have a meaning?
1000x706.jpg
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1813
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by 1813 » 03 Jan 2018 11:23

Yes! It´s marking wich kind of division it is. Ex, Panzer, Panzergrenadier,Kav, Geb and ordinary infanterie.

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by Ivan Ž. » 03 Jan 2018 16:08

Note that, as far as I know, the SS shield insignia designs were made after the war.

During the war, most SS divisions didn't have their insignia placed in a shield or didn't have an insignia at all.

The posted board itself was clearly made recently, by a hot shot who knows little about the SS and its divisions. He or she credited them all as "Panzer Divisions" and added Sepp Dietrich's (!) oak leaves below all of the shields :roll: Not to mention the messed up divisional names.

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Ivan

pim
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by pim » 03 Jan 2018 20:44

This is laughable and only helps to confuse people even more. There should be a forum named: "Post-war Fantasy of the Waffen-SS". And that's where this post belongs.

Sauerkraut
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by Sauerkraut » 03 Jan 2018 22:01

I can't say which ones are post-war fantasies and which ones are "real", but it is definitely not only about post-war fantasies!
There are photos of LSSAH vehicles in Russia, the "shield" with the division symbol can be seen on it.
LSSAH 1943.jpg
LSSAH Taganrog.jpg
On the other hand I know the Charlemagne insignia was designed after the war.

A Frunsberg Panzer Regiment Panther, the photo is said to have been taken in Pomerania, in 1945.
Frunsberg.jpg
As for the picture in the first post, I admit I could have found a better one!

The Das Reich division history by Otto Weidinger has a shield with the rune on it's front cover, but I can't remember a photo with such insigna - only the rune without the "shield"!.
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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by Ivan Ž. » 03 Jan 2018 23:16

Sauerkraut, I can only repeat what I previously wrote and ask you to read your fellow members' posts more carefully before replying next time.
Ivan Ž. wrote:Note that, as far as I know, the SS shield insignia designs were made after the war.

During the war, most SS divisions didn't have their insignia placed in a shield or didn't have an insignia at all.
The word "most" means "most" and not "all". Meaning that a couple of divisions did place their insignia in a shield.

The "SS shield insignia designs" (plural) refers to the pictured group of insignia, as a whole. Those designs (without Dietrich's oak leaves of course) were indeed used in many SS veterans' publications (Weidinger's too), after the war.

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Ivan

Sauerkraut
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by Sauerkraut » 04 Jan 2018 01:03

Ivan Ž, my post might have been unclear, but my point was simply to bring some war time examples of divisions using the "shield", with no opposition to what you wrote. I did understand "most divisions" as "not all divisions", and refered to the LSSAH that had a shield insignia and to the Charlemagne division, which is one of those "most divisions" of which "insignias" were designed after the war. The board I put in the first post was there just to illustrate what I meant by "half circles taken off", I know it is not a good document, and already admitted I should have used a better one.
1813 has answered my initial question, nonetheless, since we touched the matter of post-war fantasy, I am being curious: which division signs are genuine and which ones were created and/or started being represented in a shield shape only after the war?

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by Ivan Ž. » 04 Jan 2018 02:17

As far as I can remember, only Galician division's insignia & shield look like the original (although the lion usually looked different).

I'd really like to help out with more details, but I'm quite uncomfortable discussing that initially-posted nonsense of a photoshop montage. It really should be removed from the forum board.

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Ivan

Sauerkraut
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by Sauerkraut » 04 Jan 2018 20:31

I wish I could edit the first post, but can't, there is no "edit" button...

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by Ivan Ž. » 04 Jan 2018 22:38

I suggest that we continue the discussion here; Sauerkraut, feel free to re-post your photo examples.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 0&t=232833

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Ivan

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FransN
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Re: SS divisional "shield" insignas

Post by FransN » 05 Jan 2018 18:32

Have a look at this YouTube film titled "Czechoslovakia May 1945 German and American vehicles in colour" (or try "Die letzten Bilder der Wehrmacht in Farbe (Mai 1945)". Same film footage)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEzgCSuUDd4

It shows mainly German troops surrendering in the Pilsen area in May 1945. The film lasts about 6'55" and is in colour!.
At about 2'11" and 3'24" you'll see good examples of the divisional signs of the 2. SS Pz. Div. "Das Reich", e.g. one of its towed artillery detachments (Art. Abt. (mot.Z)). The divisional sign is in yellow and without any frame.

Also have a close look at the following time points in this film:
1'54" A Sd. Kfz. 251 passes by with on its right-hand wing/fender a tilted capital letter E or "epsilon" over a tilted white stripe or maybe sword. The halftrack seems to have an SS license plate. Think of the first (and unpopular) German-designed collar patch for the 20. W. Gren. Div. d. SS (estn. Nr. 1): a tilted sword superimposed over a letter "epsilon".... . Is this a crude divisional sign for this division or do I have a rich imagination? Most of this division had to surrender to the Russians near Prague, but some appeared to have succeeded to escape towards Pilsen and the Americans (God knows what happened to them afterwards. Sent back to the Russians....?). However, the Sd. Kfz. 251 seems not to fit with this infantry-type division.

Then have a look a the Opel Blitz at 2'29" with on its right-hand wing/fender a capital letter L with a vertical stripe to the right of it. Again, this vehicle appears to have an SS license plate. Think of the alleged divisional symbol for the 15. W. Gren. Div. d. SS (lett. Nr. 1)... However, this division wasn't in the Protectorate Böhmen-Mähren (now Czech republic) at the time.

Any comments are welcome.
Frans

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