Oberfuhrer Rudolf Fiereis. KIA in Budapest?

Discussions on all aspects of the SS and Polizei. Hosted by Andrey.
Dan Quixote
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 21:18

Oberfuhrer Rudolf Fiereis. KIA in Budapest?

#1

Post by Dan Quixote » 17 Mar 2002, 22:10

Good day, all. This is my first visit to your forum, and I hope that I am not breaching ettiquette with my questions, but recently my ship pulled into Croatia, and I took the opportunity to take a tour up to Budapest, Hungary.

Rummaging through an old curio shop on the Buda side of the Danube, I came across a little green ID pamphlet, with a photo of an SS Officer on the inside. I went ahead and purchased this item from the old madame running the store, and was hoping you guys may be able to fill me in on what/who I'm looking at here.

A scan of the inside can be seen at http://webpages.charter.net/dannkatt/ID-inside.jpg while the outside is at http://webpages.charter.net/dannkatt/ID-outside.jpg . Each is about 100kb, and a text description follows:

What I THINK I have, is the ID card for an SS Oberfuhrer from 8 SS, which was destroyed in Budapest, but that is completely and utterly based on conjecture from my part. I was hoping you guys may be able to help me out, given the following info.

The pamphlet itself is a single sheet of paper folded in half.. It's a heavy green stock, 'about 5" by 7" or so. It is labelled as such:

Deutsches Reich
SS-Dienstkarte
Beronalusiveis
NR. 21539 (the number is handwritten)

on the inside left, there is personal information, most of which I can understand.

The man's name is Rudolf Fiereis, born 11.10.1903 in Osterhofen. There is a B+W photo of a 40-ish looking man in uniform below this. His Oberfuhrer ranking is evident, although it does look very slightly different from the other examples I've seen on the web (the two leaves appear almost parallel to each other, vice the angle I've seen on some sites)

Over the photo, is a round stamp which has a big SS in the middle of it. Around the edge, the stamp says "8 Dienst ST. SS-Sturmbannfuhrer Rickel" (although I don't know where it actually starts. the 8 may be at the end...and that may not be an R that starts Rickel.. maybe a K?)

The inner right side has the same identical stamp

Also on that same (right inner) page is the following info:

Tag Des Diensteintritts: 16.01.1945
Ort Und Tag: Wien, den 24.02.1945
Truppenteil: Stamp "Dienstelle SS-Sturmbannfuhrer Rickel Hauptlager Wien" (maybe Bien?)
handwritten under that is : Verunudug (?) 1939 (somewhat illegible)

Under this is that round stamp again, stamped over the word "dienststempel"

Below this it says:

Unterschift und Deinstgrad des Einheitsfuhrers: There is a signature above this, in someone else's handwriting, with a different pen, then in what I assume is Rudolf's handwriting, it says SS-oberfuhrer.

Under this is:
Eigenhandige Unterschrift des Inhabers des Ausweises: Above this Rudolf has signed his name. Everything is in the same handwriting throughout except the signature above Rudolf Fiereis.

I don't know any German, but a trip to Babelfish just confuses me more. It almost seems that this implies he joined up in 16.01.1945 in Vienna (Wien), but I really can't see him making OberFuhrer so quickly, and the photo is fairly conclusive that the guy IS an Oberfuhrer.
Another confusing item is the word "hauptlager" in one of the stamps, which seems to translate to "Warehouse".. so, is this guy a supply chap? or was the organization that issued the card some kind of supply unit?

My guess that he was Part of 8-SS is pretty thin. It's based on the fact that there's an 8 in that round stamp, and the fact that I found this card in Budapest, where both 8-SS and 22-SS were decimated in Feb 1945

So, anyone got any thoughts on where I can go to continue my research, or maybe even have any info on who this man was?

Thanks everyone.

Dan

MaPen
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 19:40
Location: Europe

#2

Post by MaPen » 18 Mar 2002, 02:39

Doesnt look like SS-Oberfuehrer collar tabs to me. I also think that his surname was Ziereis.
Regards,

MaPen


Dan Quixote
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 21:18

#3

Post by Dan Quixote » 18 Mar 2002, 04:47

I think you're right on the Ziereis thing, in retrospect.

The collar tabs, I have no idea. As I stated, they do look somewhat different from other OberFuhrer tabs I've seen, but what else could they be? They may just look distorted from the way his collar is sitting.

I took another scan, this time at a significantly higher resolution, and cropped it down to just the tabs, so it's magnified to a couple inches across. if anyone wants a look, it's at http://webpages.charter.net/dannkatt/collar.jpg. (65k) Maybe someone else can shed some light on what they are?

Thanks again for your input, MaPen

Dan

MaPen
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 19:40
Location: Europe

#4

Post by MaPen » 18 Mar 2002, 06:39

OK, Dan

I don't know a lot of German but anyway (with help of babelfish :lol: )...

On the page 1: SS-Dienstkarte - SS serving card, Personalausweis - identity card No. 21359, Ziereis Rudolf, born 11.10.03 in Osterhofen, color of hair brown, color of eyes blue, personal signs none. On the opposite page under the sign of X SS-Oberfuehrer it's written "unterschrit und dienstgrad der einheitsfuehrer" which means "sign and military grade of unit leader".

For the collar tab: I dont know, sorry. Oh, and the document was apparently issued by Dientstelle SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Rickel, Hauptlager, Wien which (I think) is something like Office of SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Rickel,main warehouses, Wien.
just my thoughts, regards,

MaPen

MaPen
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 19:40
Location: Europe

#5

Post by MaPen » 18 Mar 2002, 07:01

And another thing: number 8 is probably just the number of this particular stamp since all official stamps are numbered.
regards,
MaPen

redmarb
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 17:27
Location: The Netherlands

Collar Tabs

#6

Post by redmarb » 18 Mar 2002, 15:06

As you take a look at the SS-Oberführer collar tabs at http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/milit ... lar-ss.htm you see there is much similarity between the ones showed there and the ones on the shoulder of Rudolf Ziereis. The fact that there's a date along with the SS-Oberführer collar tabs (1933-1942) probably means that after '42 the collar tabs changed, which may explain the differences between the tabs, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

Regards, Redmar

User avatar
Michael Miller
Forum Staff
Posts: 9023
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 23:05
Location: California
Contact:

"SS-Oberführer Ziereis"

#7

Post by Michael Miller » 18 Mar 2002, 17:21

Hate to be the one to break this news, but you've purchased a fake- and an amateurish one, at that.

There was no SS-Oberführer Ziereis in the 8.SS-Kav.Div. "Florian Geyer", nor in the rest of the SS (Allgemeine and Waffen). There was a Franz Ziereis who served as Kommandant of KL-Mauthausen, but he only reached the rank of Standartenführer.

The clincher that confirms this a phony is the picture- that's Fritz Sauckel, Gauleiter of Thuringia, Reich Plenipotentiary for Labor Allocation, and an honorary SS-Obergruppenführer.

Best wishes,
~ Mike Miller / ABR

kpp
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 17:06

#8

Post by kpp » 18 Mar 2002, 19:15

naturally it's a fake. On the second page you can even find a grammatical fault, they mention UNTERSCHIFT instead of UNTERSCHRIFT.

User avatar
Helly Angel
Member
Posts: 5132
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 21:00
Location: Florida, USA

#9

Post by Helly Angel » 19 Mar 2002, 01:03

I have the photo of Sauckel. Is the same. With Collar Tabs too, These Collar tab are form a NSDAP Leader.

Of course is a fake.

Dan Quixote
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 17 Mar 2002, 21:18

#10

Post by Dan Quixote » 19 Mar 2002, 04:42

Well Well.....

How very interesting. I do have to say, I didn't see that one coming!

I guess I didn't really even think about the possiblity of a counterfeit showing up in some backwater shop in the middle of Hungary ya know? That's EXACTLY the kind of place I would have thought to find some kind of real deal. But, then, this is/was my only foray into the world of collectables.

Don't feel bad about "breaking the news" to me, as I didn't spend more than a few beer's worth of pocket money for it (about $15 or so, if I remember correctly) , and the story/lesson has been worth the price of admission alone. The only thing hurt is my pride (well, slightly bruised, anyway) at not being able to spot a fake.


Thanks again, everyone, for your help in this. I'll leave the scans up for a few months. Someone somewhere may find this thread instructional.

Dan

redmarb
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 17:27
Location: The Netherlands

You know about German words?

#11

Post by redmarb » 19 Mar 2002, 09:35

kpp wrote:naturally it's a fake. On the second page you can even find a grammatical fault, they mention UNTERSCHIFT instead of UNTERSCHRIFT.
I don't know what's wrong with the word UNTERSCHRIFT, it's correct, translated it means signature. So far I know with my German knowledge the word Unterschift doesn't even exist. Even though the mystery is solved I wanted to say that you have to be careful with saying things about (foreign) languages :D.

kpp
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 17:06

answer to redmarb

#12

Post by kpp » 19 Mar 2002, 10:15

you are completely right that Unterschift does'nt exist. That's why it is unimaginable to find it on an official paper. If you didn't find it, look at the right side of the first photo in the second line from the bottom."Unterschift und Dienstgrad......"Now can you please explain your post.

Timo
Member
Posts: 3869
Joined: 09 Mar 2002, 23:09
Location: Europe

#13

Post by Timo » 19 Mar 2002, 16:43

First they write Unterschift (second line from the bottom) then Unterschrift (bottomline). This does not proof its a fake. You'll be surprised by the number of errors and mistakes made in such documents, then and now. I have seen similar wartime documents that were 100 percent real but with comparable typing and printing errors.

To state this document is fake you'll need better arguments.

Just my 2 cents,
Timo

User avatar
sylvieK4
Member
Posts: 3089
Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 18:29

#14

Post by sylvieK4 » 19 Mar 2002, 19:14

"To state this document is fake you'll need better arguements."

Come on! It's Fritz Sauckel. Take a look:
http://www.olokaustos.org/imgs/pics/naz ... auckel.jpg

Timo
Member
Posts: 3869
Joined: 09 Mar 2002, 23:09
Location: Europe

#15

Post by Timo » 19 Mar 2002, 19:21

sylvieK4 wrote:"To state this document is fake you'll need better arguements."

Come on! It's Fritz Sauckel. Take a look:
http://www.olokaustos.org/imgs/pics/naz ... auckel.jpg
I know its Sauckel and that the evidence is overwhelming. Just want to point out that a typing/printing error on itself is no proof.

Post Reply

Return to “The Phil Nix SS & Polizei section”