difference between SS and Waffen-SS
difference between SS and Waffen-SS
can someone tell me the difference between the Waffen-SS and the plain SS?
(theres probably a thread on thes somewhere, but i couldnt find it)
(theres probably a thread on thes somewhere, but i couldnt find it)
The plain SS officially the 'Allgemeine SS" was the basis for all other parts of the organisation.
The Waffen SS was fomred from the Politische Bereitschaften (Political Readiness Squads) and it became the Military SS, the SS army. Members of the Waffen SS generally had to be members of the Allgemeine SS but members of the Allgemeine SS did not have to be members of the Waffen SS
This is a very simplified explanation
Philmil
The Waffen SS was fomred from the Politische Bereitschaften (Political Readiness Squads) and it became the Military SS, the SS army. Members of the Waffen SS generally had to be members of the Allgemeine SS but members of the Allgemeine SS did not have to be members of the Waffen SS
This is a very simplified explanation
Philmil
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Re: difference between SS and Waffen-SS
The SS was the Nazi party's private army. The Waffen-SS was the combat branch of the SS. They were the elite in the german army (though, technically, they weren't part of the german army). They made up roughly 10% of german infantry power and 25% of german armored power. The other branches of the SS were more gestapo like and were involved with war crimes and not front-line fighting.Ti.P wrote:can someone tell me the difference between the Waffen-SS and the plain SS?
(theres probably a thread on thes somewhere, but i couldnt find it)
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The SA were the original 'bodyguards' to Hitler, the SS was started as the Stabswache (guards) at the Berlin headquarters of the fuhrer. They expanded from there especially after the night of long knives (murder of Ernst Roehm and other head SA men in order to consolidate the power of the Heer, who was nervous that the SA was becoming too strong). The SS itself wasn't exclusively a military organization in the beginning, and the men were used for police duty and as guards. When war preparations began, the Waffen SS was formed as the SS-Verfugungstruppe, and later divided and grew into specific divisions.
Re: difference between SS and Waffen-SS
... In what way "the elite"?wlvanbesien wrote:They were the elite in the german army
...Can you detail these figures? What's your source for the 10% and 25% ?wlvanbesien wrote:They made up roughly 10% of german infantry power and 25% of german armored power.
...The Waffen-SS was also involved in war crimes, as was the Heer.wlvanbesien wrote:The other branches of the SS were more gestapo like and were involved with war crimes
Regards,
Timo
thanks for the infor guys for the info.
Timo i know they didnt get the newest equipment and went downhill after the middle of the war.
More to the point would W-SS be employed in KZs?
Is there any estimation of how many would ahve been involved in war-crimes.
Would it be possible for W-SS members not to know about the KZs?
Tim
Timo i know they didnt get the newest equipment and went downhill after the middle of the war.
More to the point would W-SS be employed in KZs?
Is there any estimation of how many would ahve been involved in war-crimes.
Would it be possible for W-SS members not to know about the KZs?
Tim
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If I didn't misunderstand you, Ti.P (KZs=Concentration Camps?), as far as I know, the soldiers fightint in the front used to get a sort of break staying in the camps.
In my opinion, the comitted war crimes with civilians (specially Russians and Jews), because they also were SS and they considered themselves a superior race, but the allgemaine and concretely the Einzatzgruppen, formed by members of the different police: SIPO, KRIPO, SD (only these belonged to the SS)... were the big murderers. And of course, the two SS members: Himmler & Heydrich on the top.
Regards
In my opinion, the comitted war crimes with civilians (specially Russians and Jews), because they also were SS and they considered themselves a superior race, but the allgemaine and concretely the Einzatzgruppen, formed by members of the different police: SIPO, KRIPO, SD (only these belonged to the SS)... were the big murderers. And of course, the two SS members: Himmler & Heydrich on the top.
Regards
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KZ guard personnel were officially part of the W-SS from April 1941 onward.More to the point would W-SS be employed in KZs?
A general consensus would be that the average W-SS unit would be more likely to commit crimes either of passion, policy and/or ideology (which we would lump together all as "war crimes.") than the average Heer unit. However the reasons for this propensity varied from unit to unit and situation to situation.Is there any estimation of how many would ahve been involved in war-crimes.
Well, it would be impossible for any adult German living in 1933-45 not to know about the KZs, since they were common knowledge and discussed in the media. Given that several infamous KZ's (Dachau & Buchenwald spring immediately to mind) were part of larger SS military installations W-SS men would have closer access to the KZ system and thus more familiarity. Some W-SS men probably knew about the death camps like Auschwicz and the medical practices like the high altitude experiments on inmates at Dachau, but it seems that these kind of activities weren't openly discussed round the mess hall or barracks. Many of the rank and file W-SS guys probably had no idea about the whole KZ system chamber of horrors, but certainly the senior leadership had some idea, or could have found out if they wanted to. Many, of course, did not want to.Would it be possible for W-SS members not to know about the KZs?
Venohr, SS AA 1, remembers an incident that took place in late 1943:
Hofer, SS AA 1, about their motivation to keep fighting the Russians without thinking (from his late 1941 diary) :
It seems to me that the common Waffen-SS member knew about the camps and believed in their pre-war purpose: to lock up people (Jews, communists, etc.) who they believed were a danger to "the German cause". However, those who were never a witness of the horror that surrounded the Einsatzgruppen or the "final solution" during the war, simply could not imagine the terrible truth.
..."As we roll passed Kiew, Sturmmann Brandt, who came over from 3rd platoon for the card game, tells that during the first advance in 1941, 30,000 Jews were shot by the SD here. General laughter. Nobody believes him.""Unser Zug rollt nach Westen. Es ist ein Blitztransport. Längere Aufenthalte sind nirgendwo vorgesehen; weder bei Tag noch bei Nacht. Beim Dauerskat beginnt das Rätselraten über unseren neuen Einsatzort. Als wir an Kiew vorbeifahren, erzählt Sturmmann Brandt, der vom 3. Zug zum Kartenspiel gekommen ist, hier seien 1941, nach dem ersten Vormarsch, an die 30.000 Juden vom SD erschossen worden. Allgemeines Gelächter. Kein Mensch glaubt ihm.
Hofer, SS AA 1, about their motivation to keep fighting the Russians without thinking (from his late 1941 diary) :
..."It wasn't for the established concentration camps - of their existence we knew of course - and it wasn't racism or intolerance""Es ist nicht die weltanschauliche Schulung, die so ab und zu abgehalten wird, es sind nicht die Rassengesetze, es ist nicht die Errichtung von Konzentrationslagern - von deren Existenz wir natürlich wußten - es ist auch nicht der Rassenhochmut und die Intoleranz, die dazu führen, daß wir uns mit so bedenkenloser Hingabe dieser Sache verschreiben. Es sind ganz einfache Dinge, die uns berühren und mit denen wir sicher auch manipulierbar sind. Die Liebe zu unserem Land und seinen Menschen, der Glaube für eine gerechte Sache im Felde zu stehen - wie anders wäre es denn möglich, alles das, was man abverlangt, auch zu tragen."
It seems to me that the common Waffen-SS member knew about the camps and believed in their pre-war purpose: to lock up people (Jews, communists, etc.) who they believed were a danger to "the German cause". However, those who were never a witness of the horror that surrounded the Einsatzgruppen or the "final solution" during the war, simply could not imagine the terrible truth.
Speaking on Waffen SS you should not forget that also foreign volunteers units were included in Waffen SS. And members of those units were mostly not involved in concentraition camp guarding etc.
Even more - for example in Latvia and Estonia was organised sort of mobilisation to Waffen SS units. So, it's even difficult to speak about "volunteers" in those cases.
rgrds
Toomas
Even more - for example in Latvia and Estonia was organised sort of mobilisation to Waffen SS units. So, it's even difficult to speak about "volunteers" in those cases.
rgrds
Toomas
However a number of the guards at the death camps were Lithunaiannublu wrote:Speaking on Waffen SS you should not forget that also foreign volunteers units were included in Waffen SS. And members of those units were mostly not involved in concentraition camp guarding etc.
Even more - for example in Latvia and Estonia was organised sort of mobilisation to Waffen SS units. So, it's even difficult to speak about "volunteers" in those cases.
rgrds
Toomas
Philmil