Higher SS / SA-ranks as Kriegs- / Militärverwaltungschefs

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Gerst
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Heeresverwaltung Boards

Post by Gerst » 21 Jul 2005 20:58

Dieter,

I purchased a set of what I was told were "late war" Zahlmeister boards from a fellow in Germany last year. I have been crreating siplays of my fathers medals, awards,m etc. These had dull (not shiny) aluminum cords with dark green underlay, light gray Nebenfarbe and gold "HV" ciphers. There is green piping on top between the Russian cord. I was skeptical about the gray Nebenfarbe but the seller assured me that this was late war and correct. My father's photos all show his boards but they are black and white.

I now believe that the boards I purchased are not Heeresverwaltung boards but Militaerverwaltung boards. These have the green piping and green underlay but gray Nebenfarbe. Am I correct or would a Stabszahlmeister have had gray underlay in 1943?

If I am correct, I need to confirm the colors on the rank stars - silver or gold?

Gerst
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Last edited by Gerst on 22 Jul 2005 03:54, edited 1 time in total.

Runar
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Post by Runar » 22 Jul 2005 00:05

Hello Gerst.

Normally the Militärverwaltung would not use the HV-cyphers but an "eagle clutching a swastika" device. It was in silver for all ranks, as well as rank pips. However sometimes , possibly due to lack of the eagle device, HV-cyphers were used. There exists two patterns of the eagle device, one slightly larger than the other. The braiding of the shoulderboards are the same as regular Heeresverwaltung.
Here you can see the device: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/uniform ... icials.htm

Best regards
Runar

Runar
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Post by Runar » 22 Jul 2005 00:06

Hello Gerst.

Normally the Militärverwaltung would not use the HV-cyphers but an "eagle clutching a swastika" device. It was in silver for all ranks, as well as rank pips. However sometimes , possibly due to lack of the eagle device, HV-cyphers were used. There exists two patterns of the eagle device, one slightly larger than the other. The braiding of the shoulderboards are the same as regular Heeresverwaltung.
Here you can see the device: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/uniform ... icials.htm

Best regards
Runar

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Gerst
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Shoulderboard Auflagen

Post by Gerst » 22 Jul 2005 03:36

Thanks for your help!

It seems that towards the end of the war "anything goes." My father still wore the HV insignia in June, 1944 but no green piping on the boards and no white Nebenfarbe on the collar tabs. He was a Stabszahmeister on a corps staff. In August, 1945, he was assigned to a division in France which was wiped out and ended up in Dunkirk as a "grunt." After that, his boards were those of a captain on feldgrau. He dumped the "HV" when he picked up a machinepistol!

Gerst

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Gerst
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Heeresverwaltung Boards

Post by Gerst » 22 Jul 2005 03:53

Runar,

You said that the braid is the same for both. Do you mean that the gray "Nebenfarbe" between the dark green wool underlay and the cords is correct? They also gave green piping beween the cords running around the button hole and back, as in the photos.

Gerst

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Gerst
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Nebenfarbe gray or white?

Post by Gerst » 22 Jul 2005 04:13

After reading the Wehrmacht-Awards article, I answered my own question. The Nebenfarbe became gray in 1940 and the "HV" changed to silver. I have been told that not all officers traded the gold for the "white metal" cyphers. I can't tell from my dad's photos because none are in color! He was very frugal. I bet he kept gold cyphers! I have several photos taken in 1943 and the boards have white trim, not gray. I can't see him having his uniforms re-tailored in 1940 just to swith out the sewn-in shoulderbaords!

His June 1944 wedding picture has boards without the green piping, but the Nebenfarbe still looks white. After he went back to the front in August, 1944, the colors made no diffrence. Everbody became a grunt!

Gerst

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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 22 Jul 2005 10:22

Gerst,

Runar is a great expert in these matters !! I appreciate his detailed informations.

I have to recommend the excellent following link (author is of our moderator Christoph Awender: WW2 day by day) for further knowledges:
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

also page 12 (”Pehle”) of
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=165

and
Uniformdetails (u.a. Beamte, Sonderführer, Oberkriegsarzt):
http://www.deutschesoldaten.com/


Dieter Z

Runar
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Post by Runar » 23 Jul 2005 11:14

Thank you dear Dieter for the kind words!

Here is a picture of collar patches for officer rank in the Kriegs/Militärverwaltung, up to and including the rank of Kriegs/Militärverwaltungsamtmann. Note that some of the collar cloth is still attached and it is possible to see that it is blue.

Best regards
Runar
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Runar
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Post by Runar » 22 Nov 2005 19:46

Here is a picture of a tunic for a Militärverwaltungschef.

Best regards
Runar
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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 22 Nov 2005 22:26

An exceedingly beautiful and evident pic in opposition to Heeresgeneral and Heeresbeamter im Generalsrang.
I' m filled with enthusiasm. Thank you!

Dieter Z. :D

nickterry
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Post by nickterry » 22 Jan 2006 11:10

minor clarification to the rankings:

to 10.42: Kriegsverwaltung
after 10.42: Militaerverwaltung

add the following names to non-SS administrators:

Kriegsverwaltungschef Rachner, Sonder-, later Chefgruppe Arbeit, Wirtschaftsstab Ost

KVVChef Herbert Knabe, Chefgruppe BB, Wirtschaftsinspection Mitte, 7.41, prev. DAF-Gauobmann Magdeburg

Militaerverwaltungsvizechef Dr Werner Bosch, Chefgruppe Wirtschaft, WiIn Mitte, 1943, later a widely published author on economics in postwar BRD

there were other SS men lower down the administrative scale:

Oberkriegsverwaltungsrat Dr Guenther Kraatz, serving with Feldkommandantur 815 and then Befh. rueckw. Heeresgebiet Mitte, was an SS-Obersturmfuehrer, and passed reports back to a contact at the Reichskanzlei.

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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 22 Jan 2006 18:14

nickterry wrote:minor clarification to the rankings:

to 10.42: Kriegsverwaltung
after 10.42: Militaerverwaltung
Am 15.08.1941 wurden die Amtsbezeichnungen Kriegsverwaltungschef in Militärverwaltungschef geändert !!
New denotation in 1941
Dieter Zinke
add the following names to non-SS administrators:
Andreas Schulz and myself have mostly complete bios of about 56 KVVCh / MVVCh resp. KVCh / MVCh.
About 12 belong to the SA.
About 19 belong neither to SA nor to SS.
And 1 (Riecke), a former SA-Gruppenführer became in 1944 a SS-Gruppenführer.
Dieter Zinke
Hallo nickterry,

the topic I' m speaking of is the field of activity only for SS-officers as "Beamte der Militärverwaltung im Generalsrang",

kind regards
DZ.

BTW:
I' m very interested in supplements to Günter Rachner and Dr. Werner Bosch. Also pics welcome.

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Post by nickterry » 22 Jan 2006 18:50

Hello Dieter,

yes, I understood that you wanted the SS/SA officers of very high rank - just wanted to add my penny's worth.

about the date of the nomenclature change - it was most definitely autumn 1942, since I have gone through enough contemporary files (WiIn Mitte, WiStab Ost, Abt VII of Berueck and AOKs, Sich.Divs.) etc to know when the nomenclature changed. It was all part of a grand 'reorganisation':
- Tesmer became VII within Heeresgruppe staff (OQu/Qu.2/VII (Mil.Verw.)
- the AOK's acquired a OQu/Qu.2/VII (Mil.Verw.) official, usually Militaerverwaltungsoberrat

one can see from the files that the designations changed. I think from 11.42 onwards - there is a big conference of officials in late October 1942 and for example Tesmer, Knabe are designated KVVCh's in the protokoll.

On Dr Werner Bosch see the footnotes in Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde - but look him up in any major library catalogue and you will find at least a dozen postwar publications. So perhaps there is a postwar photo somewhere from his activities. I understand he was with a Handelskammer, so perhaps there is something from local newspapers of the region.

Rachner - he was the 'point man' for liaisons between the Labour Ministry (RAM) and the Wehrmacht already from 1939 - thus the paper trail in RAM-files for 1939 and 1940. So that's why he got tapped to be the department chief in WiStab Ost. Otherwise the labour officials are terribly, terribly grey and nondescript, despite their activities being quite ruthless.

Will you publish anything on this theme? It would be nice to spare a too-lengthy footnote citing works on Best, Turner etc with just one reference...

I made this precise point briefly in my dissertation, that a number of the military administrators were SS-ranked. But since I have not looked extensively at Heeresgruppen Nord and Sued I don't know what the comparisons are with the VII officials of the other major army groups in the east.

Nick

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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 22 Jan 2006 23:07

nickterry wrote:Hello Dieter,
about the date of the nomenclature change - it was most definitely autumn 1942, since I have gone through enough contemporary files (WiIn Mitte,
Nick
Hallo Nick,
Nach Absolon “Die Wehrmacht im Dritten Reich“, S. 220, geschah die Umbenennung am 15.08.1941.
I know the brilliant book of Christian Gerlach, I know also the other date in 1942 (we first of all had accept), but the order was nevertheless in 1941.

Dieter Z.
BTW: You will receive my PM soon :D

nickterry
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Post by nickterry » 22 Jan 2006 23:17

as so often was the case, the orders took a loooong time to filter down to the armies in the field.


Die Militärverwaltungsgruppen (Abt VII) der Sicherungsdivisionen, Standortkommandanturen, Feldkommandanturen führen ab sofort die einheitlichen Bezeichung: Abt. VII (Militärverwaltung)

Berück Mitte Abt VII/Mil.-Verw., Verwaltungsanordnungen Nr. 31, 20.11.42, NA T501/27/741

it seems improbable that there would be no renaming for over 14 months after an order. Every document before this date is Kr.Verw.

as, ironically, are the GenQu Abt Kr.Verw orders well into 1943...

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