Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
Hello Georges,
Thanks for this information, it's really appreciated. Like I said, had something on August but Josef was unknown for me. And I believe your sources, don't have them for myself but I know alot of good and descent books about all these subjects have been written. Maybe one day I'll check this one myself as well, although there're still alot of other good books I want to read.
Take care,
Mike
Thanks for this information, it's really appreciated. Like I said, had something on August but Josef was unknown for me. And I believe your sources, don't have them for myself but I know alot of good and descent books about all these subjects have been written. Maybe one day I'll check this one myself as well, although there're still alot of other good books I want to read.
Take care,
Mike
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1288360
I found a very unique frontline photo taken by the Germans in Poland in 1939 - it is said to be showing a unit of Selbschutz (Selbschutz was part of so called "V Column") acting in southern part of Greater Poland (former Provinz Posen when it was under Prussian occupation) - Polenfeldzug 1939:
The photo comes from the album "Army Poznań 1939" by Piotr Bauer and Bogusław Polak, KAW, Poznań, 1987:
I found a very unique frontline photo taken by the Germans in Poland in 1939 - it is said to be showing a unit of Selbschutz (Selbschutz was part of so called "V Column") acting in southern part of Greater Poland (former Provinz Posen when it was under Prussian occupation) - Polenfeldzug 1939:
The photo comes from the album "Army Poznań 1939" by Piotr Bauer and Bogusław Polak, KAW, Poznań, 1987:
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
It was just part of Prussia. No book nor country of the time (say in 1900) ever mentions this province as being "under Prussian occupation" ! It would be like saying that Pommerania or Silesia today are under Polish occupation (which is not wrong but WHY adding such a detail?).You have to respect the feeling of everyone here.Domen121 wrote:former Provinz Posen when it was under Prussian occupation
Willab
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
Greater Poland - from the political-lawful point of view - was under Prussian occupation.
Why?
You are right that during the partitions of the Republic of Both Nations Polish-Lithuanian authorities signed partition treaties - so they acknowledged partitioning of Rzeczpospolita - of course this was because they were forced to do so. That's why we cannot say that in 1796 the Republic of Both Nations was under anyone's occupation. It was just erased from the map of Europe and its authorities even acknowledged this erasure! Another thing is that they had got bayonets put to their necks while acknowledging!
But after the fall of the Duchy of Warsaw nobody from the Polish side acknowledged the end of its existence!
And during the Congress of Vienna in 1815 Kingdom of Prussia was obliged to assure wide autonomy for Poles living in the territories of former Republic of Both Nations and Duchy of Warsaw.
Since the beginning Prussia broke this rule because it recognized that this rule only referred to Poles living in the historical region of Greater Poland, not in other territories of Poland seized by Prussia (so particularly Pomerelia).
But Prussia - as I wrote - accepted this rule if it comes to Greater Poland - that's how the Wielkie Księstwo Poznańskie (Grand Duchy of Poznan) was formed.
Grand Duchy of Poznan was of course NOT a part of Deutscher Bund.
In 1848 Prussia broke the law and liquidated the Grand Duchy of Poznan.
In 1867 it once again broke the law and incorporated Prowincja Poznanska (Provinz Posen) to the Norddeutscher Bund. In 1871 persecution of Poles in the historical region of Greater Poland and other parts of the Prussian Annexed Territory, as well as Poles living in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia - so called Kulturkampf - started.
Until 1867 / 1871 Prussia broke all of its obligations from the Congress of Vienna!
At least since 1867 we can say that Greater Poland was under Prussian - and since 1871 German - occupation.
Moreover - Silesia was the integral part of the Civitas Schinesghe (the State of Gniezno) / Duchy of Poland / Kingdom of Poland since 985 when Mieszko I seized Silesia from the Slavonic tribe of Slezanie and built boroughs of Wroclaw, Glogow and Opole; until October of 1348 when Bohemian king Karel IV Lucemburský announced the Act of Incorporation of Silesia to the Kingdom of Bohemia. Which is over 360 years (with a few short breaks when there were wars for Silesia - mainly fought against Bohemia - during which Silesia was temporarily being subordinated to Bohemia).
And Greater Poland was never part of either Germany or Prussia before the partitions of the Republic of Both Nations.
Instead of this Greater Poland is the cradle of the state of Poland.
Piast dynasty - first Polish dynasty - originated from Greater Poland and its first boroughs were built in Giecz around year 860 and in Kalisia (Kalisz) around year 870 (according to modern dendrochronological archaeological researches) - both localities are located in historical region of Greater Poland. Most probably these boroughs were built by Siemomysl (today considered by vast majority of historians as the first historical ruler of Polanie - great grandfather of Mieszko I) or by his legendary father - Piast with his legendary wife Rzepicha.
Why?
You are right that during the partitions of the Republic of Both Nations Polish-Lithuanian authorities signed partition treaties - so they acknowledged partitioning of Rzeczpospolita - of course this was because they were forced to do so. That's why we cannot say that in 1796 the Republic of Both Nations was under anyone's occupation. It was just erased from the map of Europe and its authorities even acknowledged this erasure! Another thing is that they had got bayonets put to their necks while acknowledging!
But after the fall of the Duchy of Warsaw nobody from the Polish side acknowledged the end of its existence!
And during the Congress of Vienna in 1815 Kingdom of Prussia was obliged to assure wide autonomy for Poles living in the territories of former Republic of Both Nations and Duchy of Warsaw.
Since the beginning Prussia broke this rule because it recognized that this rule only referred to Poles living in the historical region of Greater Poland, not in other territories of Poland seized by Prussia (so particularly Pomerelia).
But Prussia - as I wrote - accepted this rule if it comes to Greater Poland - that's how the Wielkie Księstwo Poznańskie (Grand Duchy of Poznan) was formed.
Grand Duchy of Poznan was of course NOT a part of Deutscher Bund.
In 1848 Prussia broke the law and liquidated the Grand Duchy of Poznan.
In 1867 it once again broke the law and incorporated Prowincja Poznanska (Provinz Posen) to the Norddeutscher Bund. In 1871 persecution of Poles in the historical region of Greater Poland and other parts of the Prussian Annexed Territory, as well as Poles living in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia - so called Kulturkampf - started.
Until 1867 / 1871 Prussia broke all of its obligations from the Congress of Vienna!
At least since 1867 we can say that Greater Poland was under Prussian - and since 1871 German - occupation.
No - because both Deutsche Demokratische Republik and Bundesrepublik Deutschland as well as the whole rest of Europe and world acknowledged modern Polish borders in the whole series of international treaties and agreements (including especially The "Big Three" conferences in Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam in 1943 - 1945 and Polish-German border treaties signed in 1950, 1970 and 1991).It would be like saying that Pommerania or Silesia today are under Polish occupation (which is not wrong but WHY adding such a detail?).
Moreover - Silesia was the integral part of the Civitas Schinesghe (the State of Gniezno) / Duchy of Poland / Kingdom of Poland since 985 when Mieszko I seized Silesia from the Slavonic tribe of Slezanie and built boroughs of Wroclaw, Glogow and Opole; until October of 1348 when Bohemian king Karel IV Lucemburský announced the Act of Incorporation of Silesia to the Kingdom of Bohemia. Which is over 360 years (with a few short breaks when there were wars for Silesia - mainly fought against Bohemia - during which Silesia was temporarily being subordinated to Bohemia).
And Greater Poland was never part of either Germany or Prussia before the partitions of the Republic of Both Nations.
Instead of this Greater Poland is the cradle of the state of Poland.
Piast dynasty - first Polish dynasty - originated from Greater Poland and its first boroughs were built in Giecz around year 860 and in Kalisia (Kalisz) around year 870 (according to modern dendrochronological archaeological researches) - both localities are located in historical region of Greater Poland. Most probably these boroughs were built by Siemomysl (today considered by vast majority of historians as the first historical ruler of Polanie - great grandfather of Mieszko I) or by his legendary father - Piast with his legendary wife Rzepicha.
So maybe you should check some Ottoman / Turkish or Danish books - because these two countries - Ottoman Empire and Denmark - were the only countries in Europe which did not acknowledge the partitions of Poland-Lithuania.No book nor country of the time (say in 1900) ever mentions this province as being "under Prussian occupation"
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
I have just recently started looking into my family history and have been trying to find more information on my grandfather Christian Schnug and then I found these pictures. I was wondering who might have the original pictures so I might perhaps get a copy sent to me of better quality. I also have another photo of him at the train station carrying a brief case chained to his wrist that I need to find and post so perhaps I might get some information on that photo. Thank you for any assistance that you could provide.
Garry Gunther Mitton
Garry Gunther Mitton
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
I forwarded the picture above of Christian Schnug to my aunt living in Berlin and she said that was not her father, so unless there was another Christian Schnug in Poland during that time I do believe that youhave the wrong name tagged to the man listed as number 5. I have a picture of my grandfather, Christian Schnug and will post it as soon as I can locate it.
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
This is a photo of my grandfather Christian Schnug and I was wondering if any of you might be able to give me any information you can on this man. I know very little of his activities during the war and am curious. Thank you for your time and assistance.
Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
Here's what can be found on him in the SS-Dienstalterslisten (officers' seniority lists):
Name: Schnug Christian
Date of birth: 28 January 1891
SS-No.: 25 738
NSDAP-No.: 765 687
Awards and Decorations: SS Honor Ring, Iron Cross 1st Class (WWI), Cross of Honor 1914/18 for Combatants, Wound Badge in Black (WWI), War Merit Cross with Swords 2nd Class, SA Sports Badge.
Promotion Dates:
- SS-Untersturmführer - 3 Sept. 1933
- SS-Obersturmführer - 15 June 1934
- SS-Hauptsturmführer - 20 April 1935
- SS-Sturmbannführer - 30 January 1937
Occupation: Full-time officer in the Allgemeine SS (as per SS-DAL of 1 Oct. 42, 1 Oct. 43 and of 1 Oct. 44)
Known duty assignments:
- Commander of I. Sturmbann of SS-Standarte 27 (as per SS-DAL of 1 July 1935 and of 1 Dec. 1936)
- Attached to the Staff of Abschnitt XII (as per SS-DAL of 1 Dec. 38)
- Commander of II. Sturmbann of 118th SS-Standarte (as per SS-DAL of 1 Oct. 42)
- Commander of II. Sturmbann of 116th SS-Standarte (as per SS-DAL of 1 Oct. 43 and of 1 Oct. 44)
Officer rank held in Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS or Police: None
Other information: Member of Lebensborn e.V.
(Note that the rank insignia for an Allgemeine-SS Sturmbannführer are clearly visible in this photograph, as are his WW1-era Iron Cross 1st Class and Wound Badge as well as his SA Sports Badge.)
By the way, the 118th Standarte was headquartered at Preußisch Stargard (the German name for Starogard Gdański) and the 116th at Bromberg (the German name for Bydgoszcz), both which are cities in Pommerania.
Name: Schnug Christian
Date of birth: 28 January 1891
SS-No.: 25 738
NSDAP-No.: 765 687
Awards and Decorations: SS Honor Ring, Iron Cross 1st Class (WWI), Cross of Honor 1914/18 for Combatants, Wound Badge in Black (WWI), War Merit Cross with Swords 2nd Class, SA Sports Badge.
Promotion Dates:
- SS-Untersturmführer - 3 Sept. 1933
- SS-Obersturmführer - 15 June 1934
- SS-Hauptsturmführer - 20 April 1935
- SS-Sturmbannführer - 30 January 1937
Occupation: Full-time officer in the Allgemeine SS (as per SS-DAL of 1 Oct. 42, 1 Oct. 43 and of 1 Oct. 44)
Known duty assignments:
- Commander of I. Sturmbann of SS-Standarte 27 (as per SS-DAL of 1 July 1935 and of 1 Dec. 1936)
- Attached to the Staff of Abschnitt XII (as per SS-DAL of 1 Dec. 38)
- Commander of II. Sturmbann of 118th SS-Standarte (as per SS-DAL of 1 Oct. 42)
- Commander of II. Sturmbann of 116th SS-Standarte (as per SS-DAL of 1 Oct. 43 and of 1 Oct. 44)
Officer rank held in Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS or Police: None
Other information: Member of Lebensborn e.V.
(Note that the rank insignia for an Allgemeine-SS Sturmbannführer are clearly visible in this photograph, as are his WW1-era Iron Cross 1st Class and Wound Badge as well as his SA Sports Badge.)
By the way, the 118th Standarte was headquartered at Preußisch Stargard (the German name for Starogard Gdański) and the 116th at Bromberg (the German name for Bydgoszcz), both which are cities in Pommerania.
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
Wow..... talk about quick replies...thanks for all your input, much more then I had known up until now.
- Georges JEROME
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
SS-Stubaf Christian SCHNUG was Kreisführer Bromberg-Stadt from end october 1939 and Inspekteur Bromberg from december 1939 till the disband.
The Selbstschutz Bromberg-Stadt was composed of 4 hundertschaften and one Ehrensturm. It also had an internierungslager situated in an Artillery Barracks
Georges
The Selbstschutz Bromberg-Stadt was composed of 4 hundertschaften and one Ehrensturm. It also had an internierungslager situated in an Artillery Barracks
Georges
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Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
Thank you Georges, I cannot believe how all of you have so much information. I thank you all so very much, it has taken the computer age to discover the answers to many questions. Thank you again .
Garry
Garry
Re: Id Selbschutz 1939 Pommern
He was awarded the War Service Cross 2nd Class with Swords
Phil Nix
Phil Nix
Christian Schnug
Does someone perhaps knows where he was born??
And does someone has his DoD/place of death maybe??
By the way Garry, thanks for posting that great picture of your grandfather.
Thank, Mike
And does someone has his DoD/place of death maybe??
By the way Garry, thanks for posting that great picture of your grandfather.
Thank, Mike