Günsche and Fegelein Execution

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Mr Holmes
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Post by Mr Holmes » 03 Oct 2005 11:05

eindhoven wrote:Nice images to put together.



[Moderator Note~ I am sorry, but have to delete the images you posted as they were copyright-protected images from the Walter Frentz collection {and the son of Herrn Frentz is known to vigorously seek prosecution for unauthorized use of these and other color photos taken by his father}/Best wishes, ~ Mike Miller]


Hello Mike, in lieu of this, are we allowed to view the link with which to peruse the picture?

Cheers

Doktor Krollspell
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Post by Doktor Krollspell » 03 Oct 2005 13:17

Hello Gentlemen!

A really interesting thread! I haven't been able to see the documentary but I will sure look out for it...

An article about Erna Flegel, one of Hitler's nurses in the Bunker, from May 4 2005, in one of the main Swedish newspapers, Aftonbladet http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/s ... 05,00.html goes further into the relations in the Hitler-Braun-Fegelein family business...

Erna Flegel is qouted on several interesting subjects. For instance that Eva Braun was pregnant (also implied by Hans Bauer, Hitler's pilot) and that she had a kind of "relation" to her brother-in-law Hermann Fegelein. He was, according to Flegel, in love with Eva but could only marry her sister Gretl Braun since Eva and the Führer were an item.
Erna Flegel also implies that she know that the relation between Fegelein and Eva Braun weren't only platonic... The article ends in an implied beween-the-lines question that this relation could partly be the reason why Hitler ordered Fegelein to be immediately executed when he was apprehended and brought back to the Bunker in late april of 1945.
(I posted this reply earlier on the Feldgrau Forum)

I know this sounds more like something from the National Enquirer but the testimony from Erna Flegel, true or false, is still a testimony from a primary source. Personally, I think it's more gossip than fact..


Regards,

Krollspell

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Helly Angel
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Post by Helly Angel » 04 Oct 2005 02:56

Roderick wrote:
Annelie wrote: He orders that they bring him Fegelein from an brothel


Some sources say Fegelein was not in a brothel.

It's believed SS Standartenfuhrer Hoegl was to find Fegelein and went out into Charlottenburg area of Berlin, where Hermann lived, and there, in his OWN HOUSE, found him quietly resting on his bed, in civilian clothes.

Roderick


Yes Mr. Roderick, all the sources said that, in HIS own house with a hungarian lady. But it is interesting detail the shot of Schaedle. He finally commited suicide in the bunker. If he was the chief of the bodyguards and he was not in the front... which is the origin of the wound?

Best,

Deine-Zukunft
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Post by Deine-Zukunft » 04 Oct 2005 16:02

In Der Untergang person introductions,they said that Günche was like a dog to Hitler who had no own ideas or objectives just serving Hitler was his dream come true.So i think that it is quite impossible that Günche would have brainwashed Hitler to give killingorder from such high raking ss-officer as Fegelein.Sounds a bit crazy but i havent seen that doc so i dont know.And what was Günches motive?Gain more power :D

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Post by Roderick » 04 Oct 2005 18:08

Helly Angel wrote:in HIS own house with a hungarian lady.


Helly,

At least he had a good taste in the end...

Actually, Fegelein was only interested in save his ass and not to die in the Bunker.

regards,

Rod

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Gunsche and Fegelein Execution

Post by Recon Cowboy » 09 Oct 2005 05:53

I believe Dieter Zinke got it right. Fegelein was shot by Heinrich Muller in the Dreifaltigkeit Chapel on Mauerstrasse where there were no witnesses not in the Ehrenhof of the Reich Chancellery. I believe the James P. O"Donnell book The Bunker has good source material. I want to add that SS Sturmbannfuhrer Johannes Gohler was supposed to be in the Hitler Bunker but was in fact at Fischhorn Castle with Standartenfuhrer Waldemar Fegelein May 7, 1945. I was there an American with the escort for BG Robert Stack. I have long believed the members of the SS Florian Geyer Cavalry Division were guarding something at that castle perhaps brought down there by Johannes Gohler. The CIC did release some documents in 1978 I believe about Hitler and Eva Braun's possessions stored there between double walls of some portion of that castle. I do not have the CIC information but believe it was to be found on the Internet in part. Otto Gunsche would be privy to what had come to light on this kind of betrayal. Maybe Eva mentioned that Hermann Fegelein had called her to go with him when he left as mentioned in the O'Donnell book. Since Mata O'Hara "Das Leck" was never found that is another lead and I'm trying to find out more about. It could have been Babara Moam.
Yep I'm an old Dude 82, Recon Cowboy

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Dieter Zinke
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Re: Gunsche and Fegelein Execution

Post by Dieter Zinke » 09 Oct 2005 10:20

Recon Cowboy wrote:I believe Dieter Zinke got it right. Fegelein was shot by Heinrich Muller in the Dreifaltigkeit Chapel on Mauerstrasse where there were no witnesses not in the Ehrenhof of the Reich Chancellery. .......Yep I'm an old Dude 82, Recon Cowboy
Hallo Recon Cowboy!
For clearness: In the first volume "Die Generale der Waffen-SS und der Polizei" by Andreas Schulz ( with my cooperation) you will find another statement, but the right one,
of myself:

28.04.1945 “scharfes Verhör“ durch Gestapochef Heinrich Müller im Keller der nahe gelegenen Dreifaltigkeitskirche. (source Joachim Fest)
That means severe examination, not execution there!!

29.04.1945 in der ersten Nachthälfte auf den 29.04. auf Befehl Hitlers in der Nähe des Ausgangs zum Garten der Reichskanzlei durch Angehörige des Reichssicherheitsdienstes (RSD) standrechtlich erschossen. (nach Fest kurz vor Mitternacht des 28.04.1945)
In the first half of the beginning night to the 29.04. he was executed (ordered by Hitler himself) near the exit to the Reichskanzlei-garden by members of the RSD.

Kind regards
Dieter Zinke

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RE: Gunsche and Fegelein Execution

Post by Recon Cowboy » 10 Oct 2005 20:41

Thanks Dieter Zinke, I needed that guess i was blindly following the O'Donnell book which I enjoyed. With Sturmbannfurer Gohler at Fischhorn on May 7-8, 1945 I felt that it had something to do with Fegelein's execution.

Quite another matter is the knowledge that there was an American woman with Goering's entourage that came into Fischhorn Castle and I believe I know something about her. I saw her when she would come into the courtyard with her short-wave type radio and to smoke. While there two of our visiting company lieutenants Charles Wilson and Pete Rodgers tried to engage her in conversation--I heard some of it. (I was hoping to get the issue type radio so I was attentive.) She said she had thrown in her lot with the German's and was from Upton County New York. She has never been identified so I only guess. Mistakes were made, and no CIC or other intelligence representative were with our small escort at Fischhorn Castle and she was not detained even after we were relieved by the 42nd Infantry Division there. Ergo, I'm still trying to get the positive ID on her. I believ she was using the name Barbara Moam.

While working with my manuscript I made the mistake of writing David Irving and alluding to his book "Goering" and the footnote on page 466; he turned my letter into an ad for another of his books and published my letter on the Internet. I protested and asked that my letter be removed and he ignores me. So be advised, I do not endorse him in anyway.
I enjoy the forum.
All the best, Les Leggett

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Post by Chopper » 04 Aug 2007 05:13

Hello. I'm new here but I've done a lot of reading and I wanted to weigh-in on this topic. I believe that Hermann Fegelein was murdered, and 'shot for desertion' as it is widely believed.

I was browsing the internet recently and found an article on Rochus Misch turning 90 years old. I did a quick search and found several versions of the interview on different sites. Paraphrasing most of them, they say that he "knows who shot Fegelein, but that the person is a deceased RSD man and that Mr. Misch is not saying who it was". One version of the interview states that Hitler only demoted Fegelein, and was inclined to spare him.

This makes sense to me. It's been stated many times that Eva plead for Hermann's life... but what I find even more strange is that people were being allowed to leave the bunker on their own since April 23. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Hitler declare the war lost on the 22nd? Didn't Hitler say to his generals and to those around him that they could basically stay if they wanted, but that they were free to go? Wasn't Fegelein present (or at least in close proximity) to hear that comment? If this is true then Fegelein was released from his oath (or at least he felt that he was). Could this have anything to do with Fegelein arguing at his courtsmartial that he was only responsible to Himmler, and not to Hitler [anymore]?

As for him being shot for making defeatist statements... Even Hitler was making them, I think given the date and time defeatist statments were wholly reasonable and common.

I've also read that virtually no one in Hitler's staff liked eachother. One example of this tangled political mess is Bormann hating Eva, but being buddy-buddy with Fegelein who was an in-law to Eva? I'm sure all of you know about the infighting that was a source of tension within the inner-circle. On top of that, It seems that the Heer officers did not like Fegelein - probably because of how Fegelein achieved his rank - because he had connections. I believe that Even Mohnke (and a few other senior Waffen-SS officers) had contempt for him. Those like Gestapo Mueller and Rattenhuber probably didn't care too much, they were probably looking at saving their own lives as well. Misch did say that it was an RSD man who did the shooting. Does this not include Kempka, Gunsch, and Hogl? Who Else?

What all of the above people had in common though is that they are all dead, and with the exception of Mohnke and Mueller, they were all RSD, No? I think all had contempt for him, but someone had a particular grudge.. but who? Whoever it was, the person would likely be a noteworthy figure and probably defied orders or committed a crime in the process for Mr. Misch to be keeping it a secret. I think he's protecting someone. I think the few people in Hitler's circle who liked Fegelein were Borrmann, Himmler, and of course Hitler.

I don't know if it's true or not, but I've seen in Der Untergang that Eva was writing to Gretl that she was confident that Gretl would see Hermann again. Is this true or did the movie simply add this in for embelleshment? I read elsewhere that Hanna Reisch was supposed to deliver these letters, and with the exception of very few burned all of them. I think the only letters that were spared were ones that were meant for Eva's closest family. If Eva did write such a thing, wouldn't she have been in a position to know about his status? [edit]: I realize that these letters were probably sent before Hermann's arrest, but could they be relevant?

Above all wasn't there an unidentifiable corpse of an SS Gruppenfueher found in the Reich Chancellory's gardens with Mueller's papers? Maybe Fegelein was buried in the mass grave that Mueller's allegedly in?

This is all speculation but I think his demise had nothing to do with his extra-marital affairs, but if someone thought he was the one who was leaking information to the allies then revenge could have been a factor. I would also agree with the idea that someone who chose to remain loyal to their oath carried this out.. someone who did not want Fegelein to be allowed to simply walk away from the same oath. I think it's a reasonable assumption that given his personal relationship to Hitler and Eva, that Hermann was simply expelled from the SS and allowed to leave the fueherbunker. Fegelein was then probably gunned down from behind by a certain someone with a machine pistol in the courtyard, and some time later Meuller's papers were inserted into Fegelein's coat pocket.

If you're follwoing my train-of-thought then if he was expelled from the SS and let go, then he was a civillain. Just as a drunken officier cannot be tried while drunk, a civillain cannot be executed for abandoning a military post. Of course, crazier things than that have happened in April and May of 1945 than that! In my mind, Gunsche, Kempka, Monkhe (Mohnke could have had someone do the shooting) and even possibly Rochus Misch are all possible suspects. I don't mean to be so accusatory, but I'm just stating a possiblity that exists in my mind. Those are my thoughts, I dunno, what do you think?

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Georg_S
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Post by Georg_S » 04 Aug 2007 06:08

Fegelin wasn´t murdered, he was executed as "SS-Mann" as stated from several members around Hitler he was demoted (Degradiert) to SS-private.
Why he was executed is not 100% sure, but I think "Fahnennflücht" is a pretty good reason. And one more reason that Hitler was seeking "revenge" because of RFSS betrayel against Hitler. Such as he did with Göring. But Hitler didn´t manage to get hold of Himmler, and what I know and have read did Hitler suspect that Himmlers man in the Bunker must have known what Himmlers intention was. If we read the Odonnels book again "The Bunker" we can read that Hitler ordered several times that Fegelin should report himself in the Bunker several times, they called him, they even was there and gave him the "Führerbefehl" but Fegelein ignored the order, that´s why I think he was executed because of "Fahnenflücht".

Kempka , Günsche and Misch was not members of the RSD.

What I know and have read about the members of RSD and Führer Begleit Kdo and others, there was fractions between the branches.
But that they "didn´t like each other" was new to me. I know that not many liked Bormann because of his behavior during the years, much because that he tried to "climb" up in the hirarchy around Hitler.

I thin kthat the last week in the bunker is pretty faschinating and I have collcted some books about the poeple who was present there, and in the bok "the Bunker" there is a SS-Ostuf Stehr mentioned, committed suicide together with Ambassadour Hewel. Does anyone know more about this SS-Ostuf? What I understand is that he served either with SS-Div HJ or LSSAH he was married and had two children and that he was a native "Berliner"

Best reg.

Georg

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Post by Chopper » 04 Aug 2007 06:18

I've just read quotes from Hitler's personal bodyguards about Fegelein, such as "he has his brains in his.. [a certain personal place]", which was from Kempka. There were other quotes I've read regarding Fegelein from others but my memory is not fresh enough right now to accurately quote them.

To say that many in the inner circle didn't like him is IMO an understatment.

Perhaps I have the RSD and Führer Begleit Kommando confused, but I've also read that the SS-Begleitkommando des Führers [Begleit Kommando] was disbanded in 1934 and replaced with the RSD. So says the online encyclopedia I'm referencing. I know I know.. it's not always accurate.

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Post by Potsdamerplatz » 04 Aug 2007 12:30

Regarding the failure to find the body of Fegelein, here is a possible explanation:

In the 1970's, Walter Lüders, a former member of the Volkssturm, gave an interview in which he said that he had worked as part of a burial unit working in the Berlin government district in late April 1945. The body of an SS-Gruppenfuhrer in uniform was found in the garden of the Chancellery and was buried with others in a mass grave at the old Jewish Cemetery on Grosse-Hamburger-Strasse.

Walter Lude had claimed this was the body of Gestapo Muller, but if we believe his story then the corpse would more likely to have been that of Fegelein.

Best regards.

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Post by Chopper » 15 Aug 2007 19:13

I was just watching a video on YouTube Called "Death in the Bunker". It's posted in segments. I don't know when this special aired on tv but it's in English. In "Death in the Bunker 5 of 9" Rochus Misch was talking about the Fegelein execution. Basically the story is the same as he's always said it, but here he added that Fegelein was shot from behind in the hallway[?] of the Reich's Chancellory. I just thought I'd mention it.

-Chopper

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Post by Potsdamerplatz » 15 Aug 2007 19:29

Thanks for the recommendation chopper. The documentary looks interesting, I will watch it in full later tonight.

Here is the link to Part 5 which chopper refers to in his above post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6kS3ZIeEb4

Kind regards.

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Post by Mark Costa » 15 Aug 2007 19:46

Chopper:

the SS Begleikommando and the RSD were separate orgs within the SS. The SSBK were Hitler immediate bodyguards from the Leibstandarte. These men were personally chosen by Hitler as his bodyguards, valets, chauffers etc. They numbered around 150 men under the command of SS Obersturmbannfuhrer Bruno Gesche and his deputy Franz Schadle. Men like Guensche, Kempka, Linge, Misch were all members of this group.

The RSD boys were professional detectives with security training. They were headed by SS Gruppenfuhrer Hans Rattenhuber and his deputy Peter Hoegl. These two groups were constantly fighting with eachother over who was in charge of Hitler's security. It came down to the RSD covering Hitler's travel plans,movement etc whereas the SSBK were concerned with Hitler's person.

Hitler preferred the SSBK boys and kept them on for years in his service.

The rivalry also included the fact that the RSD boys were not as successful with ladies at the Berghof as were the more fun loving SSBK boys. The SSBK had a reputation with the ladies and secretaries around Hitler. The RSD were rather boring policemen types.

Mark Costa

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