Günsche and Fegelein Execution

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Chopper
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Post by Chopper » 15 Aug 2007 21:04

Thanks for the replies. I didn't know that I could post a link to You tube, I was being conservative in case it was against a rule somewhere. Also Mark, thanks for clearing up my confusion with the SS Begleikommando and the RSD. Misch has always maintained that the shooter(s) was/were from the RSD.

A note: The coverage on Fegelein actually begins towards the end of part 4 and spills into part 5. According to Misch in this interview, he also states that Fegelien was first summoned and refused. The RSD men apparently knew where to find him. Fegelain supposedly said, "Why should I come in [to the chancellery]? It's all over anyway". When the RSD men returned to the bunker Misch said that he overheard Martin Bormann ordering Fegelein's arrest. (I find this odd because of Fegelein's "alliance" with Bormann.)

I think there's quite a few inconsistant versions of the story going around. Fist he's shot in the gardens, then in the church, then in the hallway. What about in front of the new reich's chancellory? I've heard just about everything. Hopefully the details can be pieced together and maybe there will finally be a decent account of what [most likely] happened.

Anyway I finished watching the whole documentary, it's from Spiegel TV and was filmed in 2005.

-Chopper

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Georg_S
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Post by Georg_S » 15 Aug 2007 21:52

Chopper wrote:Fegelein's arrest. (I find this odd because of Fegelein's "alliance" with Bormann.)
-Chopper
After just have finished O´Donnels book "The Bunker" and Trudl Junges book "Last witness in the bunker" and Erich Kempkas book "Last days with Adolf Hitler" (again)

It was after RFSS Himmler treason against Hitler that Bormann started to manipulate Hitler that Fegelein must have known about what RFSS was doing much because that Fegelein was RFSS liasonofficer between Hitler and Himmler. Adn after have read about the personality of Bormann (who loved power - my own thoughts) it makes sence that Bormann ordered the arrest of Fegelein, but one other reason was the woman that Fegelein was hiding with, they thought that she was the one who was the "leck" - "Mata OHara" because that they thought she was of Irich origin. But no one knows for sure.

O´Donnels book is a very good book with many first hand accounts such as Günsche Mohnke, Kempka, Misch, Henschel, Schenck, H Bergmann, Axmann, Baur, Junge, Schröder, Christian and many more.

Best reg.

Georg

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Post by wolfguy » 16 Aug 2007 08:31

Excellent thread. Thanks for everyone's discussion.

To Chopper and Potsdamerplatz- You made some great points.

I too wondered if the body of the SS-Gruppenfuhrer found in the garden of the Reich Chancellery was really Fegelein's and only had Gestapo Muller's papers on them because maybe Gestapo Muller planted them there to cover up the fact that he was still alive.

Chopper- I would be more interested in hearing about what Rochus Misch had to say about who killed Fegelein. I always thought he would be the key. He seems to know about the execution. He talks of RSD men shooting Fegelein in a cellar and he also mentions that Hitler consulted Gestapo Muller and the RSD to make sure that Fegelein was dead. I guess if Hitler consulted with the Gestapo and the RSD about the execution it is because it was they who carried it out.

What specifically did Misch say that leads you to believe that he knows who the executioner was and is covering it up? And why would he still cover up this man's identity after all these years when the man in question is probably long dead anyway?

wolfman

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Post by wolfguy » 16 Aug 2007 08:59

I actually found the Rochus Misch interview from last year where he speaks of Fegelein's execution.

Would someone be so kind as to translate this into English for me.

Thank You,
wolfman

Angehörige vom Reichssicherheitsdienst erzählten mir, das Kriminalrat Högl* einem Angehörigen des RSD befahl, Fegelein zu erschießen.

"Er wurde vom dem RSD-Mann von hinten mit einem Maschinengewehr niedergestreckt. Man erzählte mir auch den Namen des Mannes, der ihn erschossen hatte. Ich will den Namen hier nicht nennen".

Chopper
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Post by Chopper » 16 Aug 2007 11:49

wolfguy wrote: What specifically did Misch say that leads you to believe that he knows who the executioner was and is covering it up? And why would he still cover up this man's identity after all these years when the man in question is probably long dead anyway?

wolfman
Why would Msch bother to say he knows something if he's not going to say what it is? That's not how I would keep a secret. If he was truly intent on keeping it quiet he could have said that he didn't know anything. I'm pretty sure that Misch was asked and he didn't just bring it up out of the blue. Instead of denying knowlege, he says, "I know who did it but I'm not saying"....

You hit on another thing that troubled me too, why hide now after all this time when the shooter is probably dead also.. or is he?

-chopper

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Post by wolfguy » 17 Aug 2007 07:57

I hope Misch reveals the name and rank of the shooter someday. It would be interesting to finally put an identity to Fegelein's executioner.

wolfman

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Post by wolfguy » 17 Aug 2007 12:09

I just watched the YouTube "Death in the Bunker" talking about Fegelein's execution.

Von Loringhoven said that he saw Fegelein "being led away by 4 SS Soldiers, and it was clear that they were taking him to be executed."

and Misch says,"Someone whose name I'm not going to mention shot him from behind with a machine gun in the hallway of the New Chancellery."

So indeed, it does appear that Misch knows (or thinks he knows) the name of Fegelein's triggerman. Funny that he would keep that to himself for 62 years.
I wonder how he knows. Maybe the shooter bragged to him later?

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Post by Potsdamerplatz » 17 Aug 2007 12:24

wolfguy wrote:I hope Misch reveals the name and rank of the shooter someday. It would be interesting to finally put an identity to Fegelein's executioner.

wolfman
Remember Misch swore an oath when he joined the SS - "My honour is loyalty" - I don't think he would ever break such a promise, especially after all this time.

Kind regards.

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Post by wolfguy » 17 Aug 2007 12:41

But just out of curiousity what would be the harm in revealing the man's identity? The shooter was just following orders. Is he afraid of reprisals from Fegelein's living relatives? Is he ashamed of what he did?

The man must still be alive, otherwise why would Misch protect the identity of a deceased person?

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Post by Chopper » 17 Aug 2007 19:24

wolfguy wrote:Von Loringhoven said that he saw Fegelein "being led away by 4 SS Soldiers, and it was clear that they were taking him to be executed."
wolfman
He also distinctly made mention that Fegelien's shoulder boards were ripped off, but said nothing of the collar tabs specifically. This could be relevant because the body of the "unknown gruppenfuehrer" in the chancellory gardens could only have been identified as such by an insignia denoting rank. I understand that the body was found, recognized immedietly as a gruppenfuehrer and then searched. This is where Meuller's papers were found. I hope I understand the story correctly.

All these are simply puzzle peices, it seems these's not enough to complete a picture yet though.

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Post by von Putzbrunn » 17 Aug 2007 20:13

This conversation is starting to be very close to a anti-Misch conversation..

I dont mean to sound like an idiot but Ive met the man in question and to hear some of you basically call him a liar makes me sick!

Hes the greatest 90-year-old Ive ever met! Hes so nice and kind that you couldnt even imagine!
SOME of you call him a liar - you should be ashamed!
Several people have contacted me to try to get Misch`s adress and phonenumber. I have NOT given it out! I did not take any oath to Adolf Hitler, Rochus Misch or even Luke Fxxking Skywalker! But HE DID!!! And some things (especially when youve taken an oath) YOU DONT TELL ! ! ! ! !
For those of you who doesnt understand and says "he could tell after 62 years", an oath that you take is a word of honor! It proves your loyalty! If herr. Misch would break his word of honor, his loyalty, what kind of man would he be?
What if a friend of yours tells you a secret and tells you not to tell anyone, you promise not to, would you still tell other people about the secret and "break your oath"?
I dont think so! If you would, you would be an awful friened! And yes, the shooter might actually still be alive!!! And maybe Misch IS still protecting him!
So what?! Whats wrong with that?!
Nobody called Misch a liar but some people are getting dangerously close!
Rochus is a great man and Im getting really pxxxed if someone would call him a liar! Have YOU met him? If not, how do you know hes lying? Whats your proof?
My point is: Get off his back ! ! ! ! He did not do anything wrong ! ! !
I promise you: What he says, he knows ! ! ! !

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von Putzbrunn
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Post by von Putzbrunn » 17 Aug 2007 20:19

I just read my own last post...
Sorry, I really didnt mean to sound so aggressive but I really DO think I have a point!

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Georg_S
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Post by Georg_S » 17 Aug 2007 20:36

I have read this thread with great interesst, and I can agree with "von Putzbrunn" that the thread is starting to become an "anti Misch" thread (just a feeling) what I would like to say is that many SS-soldiers (from SS-Strm to SS-Brigfhr) that I know and knew had a honor that we "young" peopel can´t udnerstand they protect their friends even after death. IF Misch have made a promise to this Offier who shot Feelin or if Misch felt a responsibility not revieling his name is up to him, then we can think what ever we wants. I think we have to accept the fact that Misch won´t say it and that´s the end of it. But in a hostorical point of view I can agree that it´s a shame that the name will be buried with Misch.
I know that many around Hitler promised other people who also served around Hitler that they would never reviele anything that already was known to the public. You can all read statement from Günsche, Linge, Mohnke, Schenck etc they never said anything about Hitler as person, they only talked about who visited him (in the Bunker) and soem other fragments of the situation around him, but nothing too personal.
According to some sources Wünsches made casettetapes in the 70´s about his time around Hitler, but they have never been published or known to the public. One more case of loyality or what it can be to Hitler or the circle around him.
The only case I know that someone talked freely about Hitler was Trudl Junge, but when you read her book, there isn´t much negative things about him, it´s more a positive picture of him.

Just my 2 cents.

//Georg

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Post by Chopper » 18 Aug 2007 00:13

von Putzbrunn wrote:I just read my own last post...
Sorry, I really didnt mean to sound so aggressive but I really DO think I have a point!
Yes, You do! Misch seems to be a genuinely nice man, one who lived through horrible times. He seems to be the kind of person we could learn a lot from. I understand the horrible things that he's seen in his life and I respect that. Just remember that in those crazy times even the best people did bad things. I'm not saying that he's horrible because he hasn't told the world the whole truth on this matter. I simply think that he should tell. I would be satisfied simply knowing. The second world war is practically ancient history. I doubt [well.. more than doubt] that anyone would hang for what happened to Fegelein anyway. It's just a footnote in history - one that I'm very interested in getting an answer about. So, please take my attitude towads this issue with a grain of salt.. because I do think I've hit on something important here.

-Chopper

[edit] i just reread my reply and realized how "choppy" my wording is.

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Post by wolfguy » 18 Aug 2007 02:01

With all do respect to you guys I need to clarify that I do not mean any ill will towards Mr. Misch whatsoever. In fact, quite the contrary, I value his input because I have always believed that he has much valuable insight into the whole Fegelein issue.

For me, this issue has nothing to do with accusing Misch of anything and everything to do with putting an old mystery (Fegelein's execution) to rest.

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