Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#76

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020, 23:46

Hi wm,

Your figures do not contradict mine. I was assuming far more Hungarian Army deaths than you quote - 300,000.

Do the maths. 42,000 members of the Labour Battalions are unaccounted for in exactly the same way as your quoted figures for Hungarians are arrived at. As Jews only amounted to 5% of Hungary's population, one would have to multiply 42,000 by 20 to arrive at a figure for Hungarian losses if they were suffered in the same ratio as the Labour Battalions - 840,000.

Yet Hungarian military dead were "only" about 300,000 (some sources give less). This effectively means that the Jews were nearly three times as likely to die in the Labour Battalions as Hungarians were likely to die as members of the Hungarian Army.

Now, if you have some alternative figures to offer, let's have them. How many people do you believe died in the Labour Battalions and what is your source? I have already given you my source, so now it is up to you.

Well?

Cheers,

Sid.

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steppewolf
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#77

Post by steppewolf » 30 Jun 2020, 11:28

@Sid Guttridge, there's obviously an effort to wash out Horthy. There's even state backed propaganda from Orban regime in this respect and the phenomenon to exonerate such historical figures is not singular.

You can provide as many figures as you want, there's somebody with an agenda and won't agree with you regardless of your efforts ;)


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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#78

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Jun 2020, 12:17

Hi Steppewolf,

I know, but that doesn't mean we should give them a free run.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#79

Post by Futurist » 08 Jul 2020, 07:13

steppewolf wrote:
30 Jun 2020, 11:28
@Sid Guttridge, there's obviously an effort to wash out Horthy. There's even state backed propaganda from Orban regime in this respect and the phenomenon to exonerate such historical figures is not singular.

You can provide as many figures as you want, there's somebody with an agenda and won't agree with you regardless of your efforts ;)
Why such a strong desire to rehabilitate Horthy? As in, why can't Hungarians find better figures to emulate?

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wm
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#80

Post by wm » 08 Jul 2020, 08:06

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020, 23:46
Hi wm,

Your figures do not contradict mine. I was assuming far more Hungarian Army deaths than you quote - 300,000.

Do the maths. 42,000 members of the Labour Battalions are unaccounted for in exactly the same way as your quoted figures for Hungarians are arrived at. As Jews only amounted to 5% of Hungary's population, one would have to multiply 42,000 by 20 to arrive at a figure for Hungarian losses if they were suffered in the same ratio as the Labour Battalions - 840,000.

Yet Hungarian military dead were "only" about 300,000 (some sources give less). This effectively means that the Jews were nearly three times as likely to die in the Labour Battalions as Hungarians were likely to die as members of the Hungarian Army.

Now, if you have some alternative figures to offer, let's have them. How many people do you believe died in the Labour Battalions and what is your source? I have already given you my source, so now it is up to you.

Well?

Cheers,

Sid.

All pure speculation and lack of reliable sources. Again: the burden of proof is on the claimant.

But did you know the labor battalions weren't merely for the Jews but for all Hungarian minorities and politically unreliable Hungarians?

Do you know what happened to labor battalions at Stalingrad? Why they disappeared? The Soviets murdered them all? Starved them to death? Worked to death?

From Hungary in World War II: Caught in the Cauldron:
The young officers [at Stalingrad] recounted their experiences, the essence of which was that the whole army felt itself outcast. "It was their feeling that they had been abandoned as a sacrifice. The artillery of the Hungarian units was weak, the German allies were arrogant in their treatment of them and did not give them the requested and necessary air and tank support, they awaited their relief in vain, even though the time was long past. ...
It was incomprehensible to them why exactly they had been condemned to this fate. They looked with longing at the members of the labor companies, since they worked behind the front and were not exposed to the Russian artillery."
More:
Nagy [the minister of defense till 1943] issued orders forbidding that labor service men be treated as prisoners, that their provisions be adequate, and that the sick and those unable to work be immediately demobilized. He inspected the hospital and was distressed by conditions, especially for Jewish workers lying on straw pallets or just on straw. The next day he spoke with the commanders of the Fourth and Seventh Army Corps, Lieutenant Generals Csatay and Gyimessy, and again emphasized humane treatment of Jews.
Ludwig Matyas (a Jewish worker in a Hungarian forced labor battalion for almost five years) in his book War and Hope A World War II Memoir confirms that the orders were actually carried out.

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wm
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#81

Post by wm » 08 Jul 2020, 08:50

Life in the labor battalions, according to Ludwig Matyas:
Christmas time had arrived. An air of tolerance toward us had taken hold of the guards. Gifts and bribes by the families of the wealthy had their beneficial effect. The guards had not foreseen the possibility of being recipients of pay-offs. An impasse had set in between us. Now, they expected presents from all of us. Little did they realize that not all Jews were rich. We, who could not come up with something worthwhile had nevertheless come up with something. We collected toothpaste for the guards, the ones who had never seen any. They spread the dentifrice over their bread and while munching away, commented with satisfaction on the new and good taste of their sandwiches.

Parents had donated a sleigh and two horses to the battalion commander. The families of other officers received cows and pigs. We were given better rations, oat bran soup, more bread, more coffee and plenty of cabbage macaroni stew. We were being fattened up for our promised Christmas leave. First choice was to be given to the donors. We received our first mail and our first army pay. The non-contributors, myself included, had to wait for our leave until the rich boys had returned from theirs in January.
..
We were to shove, lift, roll and tumble the cut pine trees to the logging camp. It was not easy fighting our way through the dense forest with our cargo. Yet, we were young, full of hidden optimism and the conviction that our KMSZ life would not be too bad after all.
We found fun and laughter even in this, our first engagement. It was strange seeing logs which slipped from our shoulders, rolling down a slope and a bunch of us in pursuit trying to catch the uncooperative trees before they would catapult into inaccessible ravines. We did not mind this work. As the sun bronzed our faces, the spring of this year gave us hope for an end to the war.
...
At the end of March 1943, two days before our marching off, we were visited by field medics and a dentist.
...
The next day, we were given anti-tetanus shots.
We got a new company commander. He was a first lieutenant and a pre-maturely senile person in his fifties. One day, while we were digging in the trenches, up to our midsection in ground water, a torrential downpour commenced. Soon, we were chest deep in water. It became impossible to excavate a channel to lower the level of the water. Our commander insisted on our continued work output by declaring, "You must work, rain or shine. Good workers will, in a few months, earn a special furlough. The others, who might think of running away, will be shot." Letting us absorb this dual message, he added, "You must consider this very carefully, once you are shot dead, you won't be able to take your leave." After having given us sufficient time to think over his latest reasoning, he commented further, "What do you prefer, working or being shot dead?" We could not enter into a dialogue, disputing his logic.

A half hour later, a major on horseback came galloping by. Seeing us standing in our waterway, he hollered at our commander. "Lieutenant, what are these Jews standing in the ditches for? Are they waiting for Moses to part the waters, or are they fishing for frogs?" Our commander did not dare to laugh at these sarcastic comments. The major was a divisional staff officer. He shouted a curt command to our lieutenant, "Get these bloody Jews out of the ditches immediately. Back to your quarters."

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wm
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#82

Post by wm » 08 Jul 2020, 09:21

Life in the labor battalions continues:
After one day, we arrived in one of the few, isolated Hungarian villages. We were billeted with the local peasants. A group of them, myself included, found lodging in a well digger's two room hut. For our night's rest we were provided by the landlord with redolent hay, which we spread liberally over the clay floor. It was an unaccustomed luxuriant repose. We were to stay in this village for a few days, pending receipt of further marching orders to the Hungarian and Polish border areas.
We were not obliged to do any forced labour. The roll calls were taken in a perfunctory manner, recognizing the fact that many KMSZ labourers and guards had stayed in their quarters, intent on resting up for their next work assignments.

The well digger enquired whether someone among us would be interested in helping him dig a few wells. Barra immediately volunteered. He enjoyed digging into the ground. As an enticement he was promised a dinner of good gulyas stew and a hot tub scrub by the peasant's buxom wife. Hama was very pleased with these prospects.
In the evening he returned with his mentor, who was extremely satisfied with his protegee's work. He declared, "I've never seen a person work in a well shaft like this fellow, Barna. He dug like a mole. I couldn't keep pace with him as he piled up bucketfuls of earth." Then he averred with a smile, "He really made me work. I perspired like a roasted pig." Turning to Barna, he said, "Now my buddy, my wife will give you a good rubdown. Jump into the bathtub and don't be shy."

Barna was shy. As he lowered himself into the wash trough, this being a part of a sawed off barrel, he tried to cover his masculine protuberance. Noticing this prude effort, the chubby landlady exclaimed, "Don't cover up, I've seen such wonders already." He relaxed, stretched out his arms and legs in the cosy, warm water and let the woman give him a brisk scrubbing with a bristly brush. Now it appeared to be the woman's turn to become shy. As she looked at Hama closely, she observed something extraordinary. Flushed, a squeal of disbelief escaped her lips. She felt the need to admonish our friend. "Just stay calm and don't excite yourself." Then she stuttered in mock terror, "My, my, I've never seen such a large tail." And hurriedly she called her husband, "Come here, quick, quick, look what this guy's got." And they gawked. Hama felt like a scoundrel caught in a misdemeanour. The well digger exclaimed, "From now on, I'll call you Horse-tail." And shaking his head in amazement, he opined, "I've never seen such a tool."
The peasant's bosomy wife remarked, "I'll give you a bath every night, but you must promise that you will behave yourself and won't get any funny ideas about me." Barna, alias Horse-tail, eagerly promised, not wanting to hazard the enjoyment of nightly massages by soft female hands.

We also liked our stay in this peasant's hut. Our landlord supplied us with home cooking and at the same time expressing his contempt for the Fascists who were overlording nice, decent fellows, such as us. After a week's respite, which was filled mostly with useless military drills, we started out again on our march to the frontier region.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#83

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Jul 2020, 11:29

Hi wm,

Do the maths. You have yet to come up with alternative figures.

Yes, I knew the Labour Battalions weren't entirely Jewish. However, they were about 80% Jewish. Your point is?

No Hungarians died at Stalingrad. There was half a German army, a whole Romanian army and a whole Italian army between the nearest Hungarian units and Stalingrad.

Clearly Hungarian troops would have been wrong to want to serve in the Labour Battalions, because they were three times more likely to die in them.

Surely your Nagy anecdote about improving the conditions for the Labour Battalions only goes to prove the point that conditions in them were bad?

You do realise that your Matyas anecdotes show that good treatment was an exception? How is having to bribe Hungarian authorities in order to get aid parcels through a good reflection on the authorities? Or relying on the accidental passage of a passing staff officer to get maltreatment and bad conditions alleviated? Or that hay was an unaccustomed luxury to lie in? Or that not being obliged to do forced labour was worthy of comment? Etc., etc.

Matyas writes that service in the Labour Battalions was "Military enslavement without recourse to law"

What page numbers are your quotes from Matyas on?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#84

Post by wm » 08 Jul 2020, 16:08

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 11:29
No Hungarians died at Stalingrad. There was half a German army, a whole Romanian army and a whole Italian army between the nearest Hungarian units and Stalingrad.
During the Battle of Stalingrad, the Hungarian Second Army suffered terrible losses. The Soviet breakthrough at the Don River sliced directly through the Hungarian units. Shortly after the fall of Stalingrad in January 1943, the Hungarian 2nd Army was crushed by the Soviets at the Battle of Voronezh.

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 11:29
Surely your Nagy anecdote about improving the conditions for the Labour Battalions only goes to prove the point that conditions in them were bad?
It's not an anecdote, it's a quote from a scholarly work. So I would like to remind you haven't provided any so far and I reject found-on-the-web numbers and facts. And don't forget to supply the nature of the numbers, are they casualties or deaths, and some background and the reasons, i.e., what/who killed them.
Provide proper verifiable citations for your numbers, or stop polluting the thread with opinions.

Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Jul 2020, 11:29
You do realise that your Matyas anecdotes show that good treatment was an exception?
No I don't realize that. He was there and you weren't.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#85

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jul 2020, 01:05

Hi wm,

Well, at least we agree that no Hungarians died at Stalingrad. They died at Voronezh, several hundred kilometres away.

OK, to rephrase, surely your story about Nagy from a 'scholarly work' concerning improving the conditions for the Labour Battalions only goes to prove the point that conditions in them were bad?

You don't realise that Matyas's anecdotes show that good treatment was an exception? Perhaps you should read them again. As you say, he was there.

I would be delighted to give you primary documentary sources, but I cannot, any more than you are. You may not like Yad Vashem as an internet source, but it stands unless you can contradict it with more authoritative figures.

I have simply put it to you using simple statistics that it appears that members of the Labour Battalions were about three times as likely to die as members of the Hungarian Army. If this is true then it requires some explanation, especially as they were unarmed and not in the front line. You have provided nothing concrete to contradict this.

If I may be so impertinent as to ask again, "What page numbers are your quotes from Matyas on?"

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 09 Jul 2020, 01:34, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#87

Post by Peter89 » 11 Jul 2020, 08:42

The book you are referring to is this one, in English: Nagybaczoni-Nagy, Vilmos: The Fateful Years. https://www.brownsbfs.co.uk/Product/Nag ... 1943596089

I'd like you to read this book before you make assumptions on his stance on the Jewish question in the HRA. And especially in the Labour batallions.

He was also named the first Hungarian to be named "Righteous Among The Nations" by Yad Vashem. Exactly because - against all odds and opposition - tried to improve the horrible conditions of the labour batallions. But even in office, he noticed that his orders were not carried out. He even recalls an event from 1942 when he visited the front, and he had asked a labour serviceman,
- Melyik század ez?
- Alázatosan jelentem, ez a huszadik század!

Which is a play with words, because company (as a unit) is the same as century in Hungarian. So he wanted to ask "Which unit is this?" and got the answer that "it is the XX. century / it is the XX. company".

Quoting him as a reference to the good treatment of Jews and labour servicemen is the literal definition of blasphemy.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#88

Post by Peter89 » 11 Jul 2020, 08:54

steppewolf wrote:
30 Jun 2020, 11:28
@Sid Guttridge, there's obviously an effort to wash out Horthy. There's even state backed propaganda from Orban regime in this respect and the phenomenon to exonerate such historical figures is not singular.

You can provide as many figures as you want, there's somebody with an agenda and won't agree with you regardless of your efforts ;)
It's even worse than that. The main figure of the Hungarian culture management is a guy from Romania / Szeklerland, who is proud of his stance of despising everything that is not "Hungarian". Soon there will be little colours in the Hungarian culture or historical narratives, only this primitive, agressive, nationalistic view.

About 10 years ago, I was keen to identify myself as an ethnic German but a Hungarian national. Now I rather identify myself as an ethnic German and a European national. And I got tired of debates of Hungarian nationalists and whitewashers. This nation's collective view of history is simply not prone to learn from mistakes. On the contrary, it gets proud of what is the cause of shame in the civilized world.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#89

Post by wm » 14 Jul 2020, 10:21

The Goebbels Diaries, 1942-1943
February 4, 1942
his oldest son.png
his oldest son.png (45.99 KiB) Viewed 624 times
February 20, 1942
the oldest son - 2.png
the oldest son - 2.png (54.09 KiB) Viewed 623 times

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#90

Post by Futurist » 14 Jul 2020, 20:48

Horthy Jr. had a Jewish wife?

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